To wonder why working class white boys do worse than any other ethnic group, and how we can change this?

[Carla786]

A lot of stuff I've read recently has argued the way school is set up disadvantages boys compared to girls. But this doesn't explain why white working class boys would perform worse than wc boys of other ethnicities.
Asian wc boys are more likely to have present fathers,,but black wc boys less likely than white boys (I think). So absent fathers I'm sure are part of the problem, but then maybe also black boys then have a protective factor that still boosts performance which white boys don't have? What could this be?

And how can white wc boys be helped? The question also remains why white wc girls are apparently less affected too : maybe I suppose tying in to school methods being more suited to the average girl?

https://www.spiked-online.com/2026/03/24/the-betrayal-of-white-working-class-boys/

Class and the legacy of de-industrialisation.

It is hardly surprising. Why wouldn't white working class boys do worse than any other ethnic group in the UK?

Other ethnicities will have people in their families who had the motivation to emigrate to improve their lives. They will have passed on these skills and this attitude to the next generation.

There is an equivalent group to white working class boys in every country. They aren't generally the ones who emigrate. They are the ones who stay put.

There you go (not you personally, the thread as a whole).

And to PP who said is it a massive advantage? Yes, a huge advantage to be white and male - obviously if you constantly and actively fight against the system (refuse to engage in education, apply for work etc) then there is only so far the advantage will take you. But all else being equal then, yes, big advantage.

I’ve known plenty of white working class people who have emigrated over the years. Mostly Australia or Spain. These days a lot of my friends have children who are living and working in the Middle East. I don’t think that moving abroad is just for the rich as there are opportunities abroad and many can’t see much of a future in the UK..
Which is sad really. The ones I knew who moved to Spain did tend to come back though.

I think this is where the class definitions run into problems. WC means different things to different people - one of the tradies that did work for us earns a lot more money than us and is moving into the catchment of an excellent state school. He may be working class by trade but not the white WC that these studies refer to. Unfortunately, the use of term WC in this context leads to negative associations, which can makes the situation worse.

Of course being male is a massive advantage.

There are no careers that are effectively barred to you on the basis of sex, except possibly midwife and even that gets a wave of support on this site, rather more than men ever give for women in trades. Never a price to be paid for either sex or kids, in fact both get you social kudos whereas for women both cause stigma and barriers. Nowhere on earth it is automatically dangerous to walk whereas women are constantly told don’t walk here, don’t wear that, don’t walk like this.

It’s a fact that men still have better economic outcomes than women and men in any given class are better off than the women, usually women from the class below. Men’s work pays better because men do it. Male work environments are even encouraged to strike more, nor do men usually work in areas where they have to show willing by volunteering or paying to work endless placements and told to contribute more and more. It’s not nurses going on strike is it.

This is warning that girls educational grades are slipping in general. I’d argue it’s because they’ve learned that they really don’t matter, looking at the promises made to their mothers’ generation (ie mine and the millennials) and how little we have gained in reality despite all our work.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2q189kv7yo

Why are you wasting your time being deliberately obtuse? Whenever this topic comes up whether it’s on fb or here there’s a sizeable amount of people saying white parents are useless and don’t value education and brown/black parents are raising superior well behaved studious children. Whether it’s been outright said or not on here yet or just heavily implied.

Anyway I challenge anyone who thinks that way to go walk around certain parts of London or visit certain schools in London and they can find out for themselves that they are talking complete bullshit.

Nailed it.
The English (nb "English" the Scots and Welsh differ) working class has never valued education.

Oh I forgot of course. Women can do sex work. Not that men are barred from that, there just isn’t the demand, although sex work was one of the very few sectors which grew following 2008 and the expansion of the internet. But if you think that OnlyFans should be all a girl capable of getting science A-levels with grades 6 or above should aspire to you can fuck off. Or that it’s in any way something for any girl to aspire to. There’s a reason why ‘fuck’ is our worse swear word and synonymous with exploitation and it isn’t because it’s a truly enjoyable worthwhile and fulfilling career.

Our working class family have from census and living memory always moved round UK and emmigrated for work.

DH and I both used education to get professional jobs so suppose our kids are middle class but brought up in very working class areas - lower social economic areas and a sink secondary - (we didn't have generationmal wealth to help with housing costs) . One of my Uncle's used higher education then emmigrated for work.

Did see a class definition of UK that split working class into aspriational working class and under class - and my family pretty much all apsiration in trades with skills moving for opportunities - while MN tends to think of underclass as working class ones with long-term intergenerational unemployment, dependence on state benefits, and social exclusion with persistent poverty, lack of educational qualifications, and criminal behavior.

I haven't been teaching for 10 years but we were aware of this then.

It's not straightforward. Children of immigrants do well once they have reached the same English levels as their peers. This carries on for a few generations. People who leave for a better life are resourced and resourceful, ambitious and disciplined. They instill these attitudes into their children. There are also different cultural expectations around respecting authority, both at school and with parents, and parents expectations are higher as well. With some WC British families, the challenges of generational poverty are harder to break out of and expectations and ambitions are lower and there is more permissive parenting as a result.

Huge generalisations obviously but it's what I saw.

Which drugs are you on and where can I get some? It would be nice to escape into fantasy land for a while.

Yes, for all the concern about white boys underachievement at school, within a few years they are out earning both their female and minority peers. There is still a sex and race advantage to being male and white within a cohort.

Parental engagement is the most effective counter to poverty in academic success. Poverty will always be a disadvantage but its the lack of parental engagement which is the nail in the coffin.

Girls generally do better than their male peers at school simply because girls are still socialised to be compliant/do as they are told and boys are still socialised to do the opposite. Any thread on boys’ behaviour will be full of posters insisting that "boys will be boys” and the “not my Nigels” excusing and minimising bad behaviour from boys.

Incidentally one of the reasons money was injected into the London schools many years ago was because London voters voted for policies which raised taxes but put more money into schools.

If your mam tells you you can just sign onto the dole then what chance do they have?

Because of racial bias. The squeaky wheel theory. White people aren't celebrated, they don't have a history month or diversity policies in their favour. I'm black, and I'm not saying it's nothing to do with them, but white men, white male teenagers in particular have had the shit kicked out of them for existing. It's utterly toxic.

I also think motivation plays a big part. I'm third generation, my parents and grandparents worked their backsides off to get ahead. They strived through the 80s and 90s while white men didn't feel the need to. That attitude was passed down through the last few.generations. But black teenage boys are now in big trouble, so it's coming to us too.

I feel.sorry for teenage boys today. On here lately there have been. Numerous threads about banning men from nurseries. No wonder there's a problem,.branding someone a child molester for just being alive is never going to end well or be good for their self esteem.

Could you link the research please.

Often, when the low attainment of white working class boys is mentioned, the data that seems to back this up is for pupils on, or ever on, free school meals.

For all groups (girls, boys, white British, Indian, Black Catribean etc etc) those in relative poverty (i.e. free school meals) do worse than those not on free school meals. The gap for white boys is the biggest of any group. This has been known for 15+ years. And not ignored.

State schools in England (I don' t know about situation elsewhere) received additional funding for the number of free school meals pupils they have. OfSted look at schools to judge how effectively they use this money for their FSM pupils.

The gap in attainment for white boys on FSM and their peers has proved hard to reduce.

I suspect that some politicians latch onto the term "Working Class" rather than "poor" because for more people consider themselves working class than claim free school meals and it suits the politicians' aims to appear champions of the working class.

Sorry, not following - who is kicking the shit out of white teenage boys (literally or metaphorically)?

I know you say you are black, and I will take that as being true, but I am more than a little surprised that speaking up against racial oppression is being equated to a squeaky wheel!

@ThePeppyOpalScroller
Do you know why there isn't a White History Month?

I’m not sure you understand the purpose of things like black history month. The reason there isn’t a white history month or similar is because white history is the default, it’s everywhere, it’s celebrated.

Which of the thousands of sets of data and pieces of research are you interested in? I’m summarising outputs from decades of pieces.

However don’t take my word for it - have look at places like the ONS, DFE for historic data disaggregated, plus of course cohort studies used as additional source data for influences on outcomes in education, health, social progress, earnings across lifetimes. Look for papers on the influences on success in education - over and over its parental engagement and poverty as a combination accounting for the worst underachievement.

There is no shortage of work on the differences in treatment and expectations of boys vs girls behaviour either, some dating back 60+ years with more recent observational studies showing the same effects.

As for why is there no white history month - there are 11 white history months, the bulk of the curriculum remains focused on white history, scientists, writers etc. That is why there are specific initiatives to highlight the actual existence of creatives, scientists etc who were not white men (and overwhelmingly white affluent men). Much as international women’s day was set up to recognise female success and systemic disadvantages (although there was so much whinging about have a whole day labelled for women, we now have an IMD as well)

The reluctance to have men in certain roles and situations comes from the reality that certain types of crime are overwhelmingly male committed - men need to address this. Men are certainly not “getting the shit kicked out of them” but men are doing the literal kicking the shit when it happens. If men do not want to be excluded from certain roles or spaces - its in their gift to promote better behaviours amongst men instead of excusing and minimising it as “just bantz” or “just locker room”.

@C8H10N4O2 all of this, absolutely 👍

Lol at the 'rest' comment

Kids need one day of rest, then they're ready for another daily twelve hours of activity

Different cultures have different values? I mean everybody knows that (while there is also overlap).

But also there are many white British cultures.

Quite.