AIBU to consider legal action after dismissal for long-term sickness?

[KittyCoo]

I’ve been dismissed from my job today due to long term sickness since August last year. I have crohns, ASD, and very severe OCD. I have intrusive thoughts and last summer I declared these to my boss who completely misunderstood me and was worried I’d act on these thoughts shock I told her they caused me immense distress.

Last month, I was confident I’d be able to return to work as I’m finally having CBT and on the right medication, now on an SSRI combined with an anti psychotic. My boss was supporting my return. But then a week later she decided to place me on medical suspension without any prior warning because occ health deemed me unfit to work due to my OCD still taking up a lot of my day. I then fed this back to my line manager saying I’ll beat this decision as in prove occ health wrong and that I am indeed fit for work. She arranged a meeting with me to discuss suspension and she knew my union rep was on annual leave but decided to go ahead with it anyway!!!

They dismissed me due to long term sickness and not taking into account what’s working well with my mental health!! I’m looking at finding a solicitor as I believe this is unfair dismissal due to my disabilities under the Equality Act 2010. I’ve contacted a few and had a few quotes back.

AIBU by wanting to take legal action and sue them because my OCD is deliberating and because of my ASD I have different communication styles that they’ve completely misunderstood. Do you think this is unfair dismissal ?

im so traumatised by it all and im worried ill be made homeless and have my property repossessed as I’ll have no money and won’t be able to find a future job

Mental illness stigma is alive and well on this thread. My goodness, people with OCD are not "making threats", obsessions occur because the OCD sufferer is MORE WORRIED by the sort of intrusive thoughts we all have
By definition they are LESS likely to act on these thoughts than others.

For anyone who thinks the OP might be a risk to others because of their thoughts take it from Paul Salkovskis & David Veale - two of the UKs leading OCD experts: they are not!

https://www.healthinnovationoxford.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Risk-Assessment-in-OCD.pdf

Extract: The phenomenology of OCD should lead us to consider two types of risk. The first –
primary risk – is only apparent and arises directly
from an obsession. The risk is that the patient will
act on an obsession (e.g. suicide or sexual acts with
a child) or impulsively act out an obsessional fear.

At its simplest, this need never be a concern: there
are no recorded cases of a person with OCD carry-
ing out their obsession. By definition, such intrusions are unacceptable and ego-dystonic, and the
person is no more likely to act on their intrusions
than a person with height phobia is to jump off
a tall building.

The article goes on to explore other risks, including the risk of worsening OCD by misunderstanding it.

Sorry to hear this. To make any fair assessment I would have to hear the managers side of the story.

You are not entitled to a job, but you are entitled to be treated fairly. Even from what you have said they have treated to you fairly. If you are unable to do the job, because of an illness then if makes sense they would dismiss

Maybe some advice from a no-win-no fee solicitor would be useful?

This is a lesson to be very careful what you disclose to employers. There is massive misunderstanding about both ASD and OCD. Of course you are not going to act on those thoughts, that is classic OCD intrusive thinking. Best to get yourself fully well and then find another less stressful job. I doubt that trying to fight this will be good for your mental health.

people with OCD are not "making threats", obsessions occur because the OCD sufferer is MORE WORRIED by the sort of intrusive thoughts we all have
By definition they are LESS likely to act on these thoughts than others.

Which is all well and good.

But I'm not medically qualified, so am I just to accept that when someone tells me they're thinking about hurting people? What if someone is in crisis and genuinely thinking of harming others? I'm not qualified to determine whether or not it's their OCD.

The fact is, I have no idea if the OP is a risk to others or not, so the responsible thing to do is order a risk assessment.

You've answered your own question. There is no quick fix for mental health, but if you're taking 7 months at a time off, then they can't rely on you to do the job they are paying you for.

Moving forward, you need to find a way to work alongside your mental health. No one is obliged to pay your bills while you sort your health out.

It's not illegal to sack someone with a disability if that disability means they are unable to come to work for 8 months. I'm sorry this has happened to you but an employer cannot keep a position open indefinitely for someone who is too unwell to come to work. Are you on all the benefits you're entitled to?

Fair, but this assessment should be done by a professional who understand OCD. To quote from the article again:

If healthcare professionals are uncertain about the
risks associated with intrusive sexual, aggressive or
death-related thoughts reported by people with OCD,
they should consult mental health professionals with
specific expertise in the assessment and management
of OCD. These themes are common in people with
OCD at any age, and are often misinterpreted as
indicating risk.
(This is from the NICE guidelines)

However, a
person with OCD can be harmed by an incorrect or
unduly lengthy risk assessment, responding with
increased doubts and fears about the implications
of their intrusive thoughts. At best this will lead
to greater distress, avoidance and compulsive
behaviours, and mistrust of health professionals;
at worst, to complete decompensation of the patient
or break-up of the family. In reality, there is no need
for overcautious reactions. Provided the clinician
has appropriate expertise in OCD, there are very
rarely any serious doubts about the diagnosis.

My post was mostly a response to folks talking about these thoughts as though they do indicate risk, which is incorrect.

That may be so but still a possibility. A manager would be failing in her duty of care if she carried on with the employment of someone who had intrusive thoughts of hurting people st her place of work using a knife! Quite frankly I’m amazed at people who can’t see this.

I’m really sorry this has happened - it sounds overwhelming, especially on top of everything you’ve been dealing with.

I don’t think you’re unreasonable for thinking about legal action but can’t say for certain you’ll win so suggest finding some free legal advice on disability discrimination: www.dls.org.uk/

Dismissal for long-term sickness can be lawful but your employer should follow a fair process, consider medical evidence, and look at reasonable adjustments etc.

It’s not guaranteed you’ll win but I’d do a access request for all your records from them and take it from there.

So many people still say how much the Claire Weekes' book was life-changing for them. I've heard it so many times over the years. OCD has its own operating system, but there are some similarities as you have described. There's nothing bad or unusual about having intrusive thoughts or urges - we more or less all have them. The difference in brief for people who develop OCD is the meaning and significance they attach to having the intrusions and the steps they take to neutralise or cope with them (for instance checking, reassurance-seeking, performing rituals, etc). They cause distress and physical anxiety. This is a broad brushstroke and its slightly different for everyone, but they are the common components. I think you could say that the aim of treatment in OCD is to learn to ride out the intrusions and not validate them through the physical and mental actions, which actually function to reinforce the sense of threat/harm. So it's to change the relationship with the intrusions. This is similar to Claire Weekes' approach, I would say.

There was a poster on here not so long back who went off sick shortly after being hired, has been off years and intends on staying on the payroll until retirement. They posted panicking because they were being brought in for a meeting.

It's probably rare but it sounds like it's a thing.

Oh come on OP, you haven’t been able to do the job for 7 months, and at best you were suggesting a return with reduced hours. They were then told you’re not fit to return to work by OH and with no end in sight. What would you do in their shoes? Are you expecting the to just pay SSP indefinitely?
It’s an admin role which they presumably do need someone to actually do and isn’t specialised so can be easily filled - it’s really not fair on the employer or your colleagues either to keep stringing them along if you’ve no possibility of returning.

I am really sorry you’re going through a hard time but as someone else suggested, focus on getting well and then maybe do some volunteer work to build up references before trying employment again.

You don't seem to understand how OCD works. That's not unusual tbf. Everyone has fleeting intrusive thoughts which disturb them. For most people their response is "that was weird/unsettling" & they move on. Folks with OCD are more disturbed by these thoughts than the average person in part becuase they are ego dystonic. As Paul Salkovskis explains, clean people develop obsessions around contamination, loving parents develop obsessions around hurting their children.

It's not at all the same as having an intrusive thought of WANTING something, although sometimes the degree of doubt the sufferer experiences might make them worry that they want it.

As the article states, there are no recorded cases of a person with OCD carrying out their obsession. So, with respect, it actually isn't a possibility!

Yes, a manager would need to be sure that it's OCD. They would also need to ensure that work wouldn't worsen the condition & that the person could do the work, with reasonable adjustments of necessary. But an extensive risk assessment which treats the thought as a genuine risk would destroy the sufferer.
"At best this will lead
to greater distress, avoidance and compulsive
behaviours, and mistrust of health professionals;
at worst, to complete decompensation of the patient
or break-up of the family. In reality, there is no need
for overcautious reactions. Provided the clinician
has appropriate expertise in OCD, there are very
rarely any serious doubts about the diagnosis".

But we don’t know she was even dismissed for the intrusive thoughts. More likely because she’s been off for 7 months with no prospect of return

I work in HR. An occupational health report rarely states that someone is unfit to work, normally reasonable adjustments are recommended. So by saying you are unfit to work it sounds like the employer has acted lawfully and had previously been trying to support a return to work. Have you seen the report? If not i recommend requesting it through a subject access release- there are templates online on the wording to use to make that request. If you do not agree with that you could use that as the basis of your appeal.

there was someone on a thread last week saying they’d been signed off work sick for 3 years!!!!!!!

She’s been off nine months and on a final sickness hearing, occupational health have taken the unusual view she’s not fit to work and won’t be in any reasonable time frame.

it sounds like there is detail missing of this is final hearing, and the fact the op does think she’s able to return doesn’t over rule what occupational heath thinks, none of us were at that meeting, or the assessment so we can’t say if occupational health is right or not.

the company does not need to keep her indefinitely and if occupational health feel she is unable to work and won’t be any time soon they can terminate if they follow process, which it seems they did.

arguing over how ocd works is fairly pointless.

Public sector.

People are getting hung up on the "harm" thing with the OP but that's a bit of a red herring. She is too unwell to be at work and has no prospect of returning soon. That is why they have dismissed her, because she is incapable of doing her job.

I'm struggling to follow all the details of the employment termination. None of my posts have made any reference to whether the termination is appropriate or not, because i don't feel qualified to judge this.

However I disagree that arguing over how OCD works is fairly pointless. It's a misunderstood condition and this can cause sufferers, both diagnosed and undiagnosed, considerable harm. So I'm correcting the misunderstanding, not commenting on whether the OPs employment should have been terminated.

@StrictlyCoffee

Before going to tribunal, you must be able to show that you have fully exhausted the appeals process.

Contact your union asap and put n your appeal against dismissal. I suggest that you read the disciplinary policy and the sickness policy, it sounds as though they scheduled a meeting when your union rep wasn't available which probably means they didn't follow the process. Work with your union on this

Yes - in a general sense there may be a training opportunity for wider MH awareness across the organisation. Whether the employer’s own misunderstanding of OCD has had any impact on the dismissal decision remains unclear.

You can get all of the training in the world. Be as understanding and accommodating as you can. But if the human brain gets told that someone they're talking to gets urges to kill people with a knife. It will hold onto that. It will not let you override it. The survival instinct is the most powerful instinct we have.

The best thing to do as a sufferer, is being sparing with the details.

Would the intrusive, violent thoughts, be similar to how some people with Tourette syndrome say some disturbing and disgusting things, but others think of those things as meaning nothing. Surely to say those things they have to be in their mind in the first place or where does it come from?

Perhaps some people can't get past the details, but some can.

Paul Salkovskis, for example, has described how he keeps a large knife in his office drawer. He invites people with obsessional fears around knives to hold the knife against his throat. He's that confident they wouldn't act on their thoughts.

This is Exposure and Response Prevention, part of CBT, which is the gold standard treatment for OCD, where you expose yourself to your fears, & then refrain from carrying out compulsions.

But people aren’t dismissing the fact that OP isn’t well. Surely you can appreciate that if you’re running a business and you have an employee who has been absent for seven months, returns and isn’t productive because their day is taken up with managing that illness, and is assessed by occupational health to not be fit to work, that it’s just not fair on both the company and other employees to continue with the employment? OP needs to get all the help she is entitled to either via NHS or privately, and take the benefits she’s entitled to until she’s fit to work.