Two Opposing Popular Mumsnet Views

[UppityUpUpDoon]

Two very popular views I see on here often seem to me completely at odds, and I can't work out if the two groups who jump on threads to express these views are two different groups, or if they are the same group and can justify holding both views simultaneously.

Popular Opinion 1:
Men can never become women and vice versa. There are irrefutable and biological differences that no amount of hormones/surgery/etc will negate.

Popular Opinion 2:
It is completely unreasonable for a pregnant woman to express (or indeed privately feel) a preference for one sex over the other. All babies are just babies. Girls can like football, boys ballet, etc. There's no statistical difference.

YABU - Both can be true (please explain your reasoning, and at what age you think the sexes start to diverge). I should say there are a lot of studies on these, but I'm also interested in people's opinions.

YANBU - These are two opposing views.

You sound like an LLM. Hardly an original question.

These are two completely unrelated views.

How are they at odds? A girl liking football doesn't make them a boy.

How are they comparable? I don't understand how you think they are opposing views? It's like comparing apples and oranges.

I don't understand why you think these are opposing views. They are views on two different topics.

I can't vote, as your second popular opinion makes no sense. It's fine for people to have no preference as to the sex of their baby, most people just want a healthy one.

The fact that boys and girls can.like whatever they want to isn't linked to whether it's ok to prefer one or the other.

Popular opinion 1 is correct. Popular opinion 2 could also be correct, people can want what they want and it has nothing to do with gendered expectations of interests.

Badly phrased aibu in my opinion.

I don’t really understand how these two things are connected?

You are confusing sex and gender, also, which may be where you’ve taken a wrong turn.

It seems to me to be a fairly common feminist position to distinguish between sex (biological) and gender (cultural). People who don't make this distinction are more likely, in my opinion, to think that if a girl likes football instead of ballet, it's because she was meant to be a boy.

They are 2 completely separate opinions on 2 completely separate issues

You have to be a complete idiot to the think those are two opposing views.

I don’t understand why anyone would think those views contradict each other.

Men cannot become women and vice versa. Boys can play with dolls, it does not make them girls. Girls can play with cars, it does not make them boys

Or am I missing something?

Can't see at all why you think those views are in contradiction of each other.

If the aibu had been is aibu to think these opinions aren't at odds with each other, the OP would not have been unreasonable.

As it is, I suspect she wont be back.

I don’t really understand your point. The views aren’t opposing at all.

I don’t think you’re being genuine here though. New poster or name change?

🙄

Bizarre post.

I don’t think future parents should express a strong preference over which sex they want. But this is NOT because all babies/children are the same. It’s because they should love their baby, whatever sex it is. Do you really not understand this?

The two are not at all comparable.

yours

a tomboy.

2 is wrong. Women who have a very strong presence are typically obsessed with GENDER not sex and should also not get pregnant if a boy would be a disaster for them. Equally, men can’t change SEX.

YABU - both can be true of course. The first opinion talks about biological differences and the second personality differences. Two different things. Your biology doesn't dictate your personality.

Although I don't think people should be shamed for feeling a preference around whether they have a boy/girl.

I for one wonder what the OP's agenda is here.

I genuinely thought it was quite obvious how they are opposing, but perhaps I should ask another question: why are women who have a preference for a boy/girl heavily rounded on, when we know there are huge differences between the sexes?

I know it is uncomfortable, and no one wants a woman to have baby she won't love, but I have two friends who have experienced gender disappointment. One lasted only a little while and now they couldn't care less (they never didn't love their child). The other is currently going through it, and as a mother of both I refuse to take the line, "At least they are healthy! It really doesn't make a difference which you have." It does. Mine are very different and in a stereotypical way (but I love them both equally).

Why can't we say to women, "What you are experiencing is very normal, you're not an awful person, but trust that you'll love them regardless (but there will be differences)"?

I don’t think those views contradict one another. You are conflating sex and gender.

You can think that sex is immutable, and that gender, i.e. clothing, interests etc associated with a particular sex is constructed, not innate. This isn’t new or radical, I was discussing this at university 30 years ago.

I think it’s completely unremarkable to have a preference for one sex over another. Even if you believe the above, challenging gender norms is still hard so if you are hoping for your child to have a particular set of interests it’s easier and less controversial if they are the sex those things are associated with.