Two Opposing Popular Mumsnet Views

[UppityUpUpDoon]

Two very popular views I see on here often seem to me completely at odds, and I can't work out if the two groups who jump on threads to express these views are two different groups, or if they are the same group and can justify holding both views simultaneously.

Popular Opinion 1:
Men can never become women and vice versa. There are irrefutable and biological differences that no amount of hormones/surgery/etc will negate.

Popular Opinion 2:
It is completely unreasonable for a pregnant woman to express (or indeed privately feel) a preference for one sex over the other. All babies are just babies. Girls can like football, boys ballet, etc. There's no statistical difference.

YABU - Both can be true (please explain your reasoning, and at what age you think the sexes start to diverge). I should say there are a lot of studies on these, but I'm also interested in people's opinions.

YANBU - These are two opposing views.

But they aren't opposing views at all. Men cannot biologically change sex. They cannot become women. That's a fact. Girls can like football and boys can like ballet and sometimes the sexes naturally conform to stereotypes.

But what has gender disappointment got to do with the fact that you can't change your sex?

What does any of this have to do with humans being unable to change sex?

You do realise that sex and gender stereotypes are different, right?

Clearly I'm on my own!

It sounds to me like many of you would be happy with the statement:
Men and women are statistically different, but you are not allowed to have a preference.

Genuinely, can you explain? I'm uncomfortable with the word gender.

I don't think anyone on this thread has said this have they?

But even if you were to say that parenting a boy is in general different to parenting a girl, why would that mean that people can change sex?

What do you mean by 'statistically different' ?

What does statistically different mean? Men have different statistics to women? Well they are taller.

It’s not fair to a child to have one if you will be disappointed about an immutable fact about them. That is often dressed up in gender stereotypes. Which are stupid. But often present. However, someone wanting a pink unicorn room would have been very disappointed in DD.

When you get pregnant, you know there's a 50/50 chance of it being either a boy or a girl so yeah, I do think it's a bit silly to have a preference so strong that you're devastated by the sex. Even if the sexes are "statistically different", whatever that means.

What is it about the word 'gender' that makes you uncomfortable?

I don't think number 2 is a popular opinion. Most people acknowledge that raising girls and boys if different. I just don't think you should have a baby if you have such strong feelings about it (part of the reason I don't want anymore!)

I actually don’t think people have an issue with a woman having a preference for the sex of her baby. I think people who take issue with gender disappointment have a problem with the level of disappointment (“devastated” is a word I’ve see used) over something they knew was a 50/50 chance. And with the stereotypes that often come up from those women (“I just imagined a little girl I could do shopping and girly things with”)

You are muddling things together.
there are two sexes and you can’t change between them
girls can like football and it doesn’t make them boys
some people like boys better than girls or the other way around. Some people think that’s mean and others think it’s ok.

the third one has nothing to do with the top two statements

I think you might be doing that thing of thinking MN is some kind of monolith so if you see one thing on one thread and something seemingly contradictory on another thread, they are both coming from the same person.

You're cherry picking the responses you disagree with on threads about 2, and ignoring the many responses that people with gender/sex disappointment also get that are very understanding of that feeling (even if they also reassure people that they'll get over it).

The reason people can't change sex and that there are biological differences is just material fact. But babies are born into society, to parents with their own experiences and expectations. Disappointment borne of "all girls are like this so my daughter will be like this" or "all boys are like this so my son will be like this" should be pushed back against a bit, but some disappointment just comes from personal experiences and is much more understandable.

The differences between the sexes are biological. Most of one's personality isnt inherently dictated by their sex. So if you want a girl because you think they will lile dolls, dresses and hate football, that is problematic. And that is the reason most people have a sex preference. They believe that girls are one way (these days nicer, more compliant and pleasant) and boys are another (boisterous, violent and dirty). Those beliefs are based on rigid sex stereotypes.

If you want a girl because you hope she has children and you want to support her through pregnancy and birth, that's making a lot of assumptions about what choices she will make, but it isn't the same as assuming she will like pink. It is based in the reality that only women and girls can conceive.

Gender, performative bollocks, often spread by society as a means to put people in boxes e.g. boys are rough and tumble and like blue and football, girls and kind and dainty and like pink and ballet.

Sex, your biologically dictated ability to produce small or large gametes, I.e. sperms or ova. Unchangeable.

I’m utterly bewildered as to why you think these two positions are opposing.

Your “explanation” has done nothing to clarify your thought process

It's sounds to me like you really want there to be lots of people who agree with that statement (not sure what you mean by 'statistically' there though - are you talking about biological differences or gender stereotypes?) so you can have a good old argument with them! But it's a bit of a straw man I think.

Men are women are biologically different and humans can’t change sex.

sex is “ the baby is a girl”
gender is “so let’s wrap her in a pink blanket”

because people have weird ideas about the correct stereotypical behaviour, interests, hobbies clothes and hairstyles that children should have because of their sex, some women experience maternal disappointment. When they talk about why, it is always in terms of stereotypical behaviours and activities.

this is very similar to the parents of “transgender” children who say their children are “born in the wrong body”
because they have interests stereotypically associated with the other sex.

its all nonsense

if we said you are male or female, but this has no bearing on the toys you can play with, the clothes you wear, the length of your hair etc then everyone would be happier IMO.

that does not mean I want to undress in front of adult male strangers at my gym or I think we should allow teenager at girl guides to have mixed sex sleepovers, or that we should house rapists in women’s prisons.

The opposing view to

“Humans can’t change sex,” is “Humans can change sex”

and to

“It’s acceptable to have a preferred sex for your baby,” is “It’s not acceptable to have a preferred sex for your baby”

These are two different and unrelated ideas. Not sure why you're conflating them.