Two Opposing Popular Mumsnet Views

[UppityUpUpDoon]

Two very popular views I see on here often seem to me completely at odds, and I can't work out if the two groups who jump on threads to express these views are two different groups, or if they are the same group and can justify holding both views simultaneously.

Popular Opinion 1:
Men can never become women and vice versa. There are irrefutable and biological differences that no amount of hormones/surgery/etc will negate.

Popular Opinion 2:
It is completely unreasonable for a pregnant woman to express (or indeed privately feel) a preference for one sex over the other. All babies are just babies. Girls can like football, boys ballet, etc. There's no statistical difference.

YABU - Both can be true (please explain your reasoning, and at what age you think the sexes start to diverge). I should say there are a lot of studies on these, but I'm also interested in people's opinions.

YANBU - These are two opposing views.

This.

Both sexes are equally good and of value. Any parent would be lucky to have a male or female child.

You can’t change your sex.

I don’t understand your confusion on this or why you feel the two things are any more than minority superficially related.

I see what you mean. I understand having a preference on gender and in any case you can't control what you feel.

LOL

Potatoes are vegetables

Crisps aren't vegetables

This means Mumsnet is transhobic

why are you uncomfortable with the word ‘gender’?

I’m also not seeing the link.

Men and women are two different sexes with different biological characteristics. It isn’t possible
to change sex.

I think it’s a shame when people have a very strong preference for which sex their baby will be. If they are going to be ‘devastated’ to get one or the other, they probably shouldn’t have a baby.

Nobody is making any statements like that except you. You're still conflating two completely different ideas. Your follow up posts are not explaining your thinking at all.

. You can't turn an apple into an orange.

. Having a preference for what comes out of the bag is ok. But if you get an orange when you wanted an apple then you have to just get on with it.

Does that help OP?

In what way are these two issues connected?

The only tenuous link I can think of is if you believe gender stereotypes are determined by biology rather than societal influences.

What does this even mean?

I don’t think gender preference has anything to do with it.

I don’t believe anyone can change sex.

I don’t think it’s abnormal to have a preference for a certain sex of child (I did, as much as I tried to ignore it and knew I’d get over it once the baby was born either way).

Even if I did think it was wrong for people to express gender disappointment or believed that there was ‘no difference’ between children of different sexes - why would that follow that I think people can change sex? It doesn’t.

I think both sexes can behave, act and present in ways that are stereotypically seen as aligning with their sex (or gender if you prefer), and I think it’s also very common for them to not do so. I think a boy who dresses up as Elsa and loves ballet and wears nail polish is still a boy, and I think it’s better to expand the definition of what it means to be a boy or man so it can include these things, rather than assume it’s because they’re ’girly’ or worse that they are somehow in the wrong body.

I have a stereotypically girly girl who likes all the things that are generally associated with that - princesses, fairies, sparkles and unicorns etc, and who also really likes football and dinosaurs and space. She likes adventurous physical play and getting messy, plus she’s loud and boisterous as well as being creative and loving and sensitive at times. All of those things can still be part of being a girl.

I have two friends with girls who play football and/ or rugby competitively, won’t wear dresses or skirts, prefer their hair short etc. One is mainly interested in dragons outside of the sport stuff, the other’s main interests are fossils and sharks. Both are still girls, and have never suggested they feel anything different - I hope they are allowed to continue to peruse their passions and interests without being made to feel it’s got anything to do with being in the ‘wrong’ body.

But then again, even if you do believe gender stereotypes are caused by biology, it doesn’t logically entail that you also believe humans can change sex…
… or is it not change sex?

Whatever it is that OPs driving at, anyway!

Not the person your asking but I'll give it a go.

I am a man. I'm male. That's my sex. It always has been my sex, it always will be my sex. It is immutable.

Because I'm a man, there are certain gender** stereotypes about me. I like football, I like action movies, I like meat and beer and roughhousing. I hate shopping and flowers. The moment I get a wife I'll completely ditch my family for hers.

They're all a load of bollocks. Well, some of them are true. I do have an unhealthy relationship with bacon. I like a pint. I like some action movies, usually if there's a spaceship in then, but I also quite enjoy a romantic comedy (also improved by spaceships). But I absolutely loathe football, and "banter" and hated it when people wanted to play wrestling in school. I had a really good relationship with my Mum while she was alive, even after I had a wife and kids of my own. I quite enjoy a wonder round the shops.

Gender stereotypes are just that, stereotypes. Yes, you're more inclined to like football if you're a bloke, but that doesn't mean that all blokes like football.

Gender disappointment is built around those stereotypes. Its a fear that they're not going to be able to do certain stuff with their kids because they're the wrong sex, that they won't bond with them, won't be able to connect with them because they won't want to do the same stuff as them.

And it's bollocks. Me and my Dad have a crap relationship partially because we have absolutely fuck all in common. I'm sure he was disappointed that I never wanted a kick about in the park with him, that I had no interest in surfing, or skateboarding etc. I'm sure he loathed the fact that I'd rather watch Corrie with Mum than Rambo with him. But that's nothing to do with gender, it's just about who we are as people.

I think a certain amount of hoping you get a boy or a girl is normal, but actually letting it get you down when you don't get the sex you want isn't a good thing. You're not having a set of tickboxes of gender stereotypes, you're having a baby, a person, and trying to build a good relationship with that person is the same no matter what sex they are.

**or sex if you prefer, I consider the two words pretty much interchangeable

OP. you are muddling up two completely different things which are not opposites of each other.

This question doesn’t make sense, for the reasons that others have pointed out.

True - it was the only thing i could think of!

You did better than me of making any sense of it at all!

Im not sure it's about wanting to dress them up, or play with dolls etc . I think it can be a woman thinks she will understand the mind of a girl more because she was one. They feel they will be closer.

Honestly I think sexism has rotted people's brains. No one can change sex. Girls do not have to perform to be a girl. Just stop and think ffs

While I think one of your opinions has not a lot to do with the other, I think it’s fine to have a preference for a boy or a girl. After three sons my DH definitely wanted a girl. When we found out my first (I am not the mother of the first two boys) was a boy, there was a few seconds of ‘here we go again’ but then we moved on almost instantly and were happy he was healthy. But there was definitely an extra delight when our next was a girl. If she had been a he, he certainly would not have been loved any less, but a wistful thought that at 43, I was unlikely to have another chance to have a girl. As long as the child is loved regardless of sex, and is never made to feel a disappointment that they were not the other, all good.
However, a caveat. It does annoy me no end when I see gender reveals shorts on FB and 90% of the time when it’s a boy the man gets maniacally excited. If it’s a girl there’s not nearly the same reaction. It’s always the man who does this.

This.
They are not opposing view of the same issue.
They are totally different issues.

why are women who have a preference for a boy/girl heavily rounded on, when we know there are huge differences between the sexes?

IF they are rounded on it is often as much to do with implying that your precious soon to be born baby might be a disappointment in some way and therefore not fair on the child.

What are you trying to prove, OP?

Biological sex cannot be changed. That is a matter of scientific fact. It's in every scrap of our DNA.

There is much social conditioning about how boys and girls are perceived to be, and some actual statistical differences in rates of development in different areas - this is also a fact.

Sex is a fact.
Gender conditioning and pressure is a fact.

No opposing views at all.

Men don't tend to get critised on social media for wanting a boy. Only women do for wanting a girl.

Don’t they? I know that it’s something my social circle criticises. Probably more so than the other way around.