Two Opposing Popular Mumsnet Views

[UppityUpUpDoon]

Two very popular views I see on here often seem to me completely at odds, and I can't work out if the two groups who jump on threads to express these views are two different groups, or if they are the same group and can justify holding both views simultaneously.

Popular Opinion 1:
Men can never become women and vice versa. There are irrefutable and biological differences that no amount of hormones/surgery/etc will negate.

Popular Opinion 2:
It is completely unreasonable for a pregnant woman to express (or indeed privately feel) a preference for one sex over the other. All babies are just babies. Girls can like football, boys ballet, etc. There's no statistical difference.

YABU - Both can be true (please explain your reasoning, and at what age you think the sexes start to diverge). I should say there are a lot of studies on these, but I'm also interested in people's opinions.

YANBU - These are two opposing views.

Seems there are more than 2 views here.

1. Sex is immutable and sometimes matters in life and law.
2. Either sex can enjoy gender non conforming toys.
3. Pregnant women should express a preference for the sex of their baby.

Non are opposing views.

I think it is very obvious what you mean OP, and there are a lot of people being extremely obtuse on this thread.

Your Popular Opinion 1 is predicated on the fact that men and women are fundamentally different in extremely important ways.

Your Popular Option 2 is predicated on the fact that there are no meaningful differences between boys and girls, and the experience of parenting a boy is identical to the experience of parenting a girl. Any differences in parenting a boy child vs a girl child is 100% attributable to individual personality differences and 0% to sex.

My personal view is that women cannot become men and vice versa, and that gender disappointment can be very real, and it is extremely dismissive to imply that is is about a preference for a child who plays football or a child who will wear pretty dresses.

So I think that means I agree with you?

I think women (and men, because fathers often have a preference for a boy or a girl as well) shouldn't be shamed for feeling sex disappointment, but I also think they should just shut up and get on with it. You get what you get, and ultimately, if your child is healthy, you've been blessed. You can feel disappointment for many reasons that it's best to either keep to yourself or confide in a friend and leave it at that.

The sex disappointment thing is just one in a long list of opinions that are perfectly natural to feel but currently unpopular or politically incorrect. Generally, I think that's a bad thing, but this is one where I don't feel quite as much sympathy for the people being told to be quiet. The main difference in this case, for me, is that you don't want the baby to eventually grow up to learn that mummy or daddy felt disappointed about them. And given how many people struggle with infertility or have babies with health problems, it does seem unpleasant to complain (publicly) about your perfectly healthy baby's sex.

Boys and girls don't need to be (shouldn't be) treated differently in terms of their abilities and potential, but that doesn't make boys girls or girls boys they have different sex chromosomes and develop different genitals.

That doesn't mean that you might like to have a girl (like me), or a boy like his dad, or that if you have two girls you might like a boy this time. Or if you had an obnoxious brother you might worry about having a boy with your perfect little girl.

OP

You've posted two different statements about two different issues.

The first is about whether human beings can change sex or not.

The second is about people who are disappointed with the sex of their baby.

These two statements do not express opposing views, and I don't understand how you can possibly think that they do.

They're two different issues altogether.

You have a baby who is a person.
This person is male or female.
Sex is immutable.
Men and Women are physically different.
People have different personalities.

These are all true

The issue is the assumption that male people will ALWAYS have a particular personality type ie be sporty, aggressive, loud, boisterous. Female people will always be soft, gentle, quiet etc. Gender disappointment is based on the incorrect assumption that all men are the same and all women are the same - this is clearly and obviously untrue.

Men and women are clearly and obviously physically different.

Women who are pregnant sometimes express a preference for one sex or the other but this preference is often based on behaviour eg I’d like to have a girl so as she grows up we can talk clothes and skin care,

such a mum would be very disappointed in me (female) who hates clothes fashion and skincare and is into football and sports.

i don’t think I’ve ever heard a pregnant woman say “I want a boy because he’ll have a penis”.

Can you elaborate on what you think the differences are, exactly?

Are you suggesting that some parents are fixated on their children having (or not having) certain body parts? That would strike me as being a very unhealthy focus for a prospective parent, and potentially a bit creepy.

Or are you suggesting that some parents are fixated on having a boy or girl because of their preconceived stereotypes about what boys or girls are like? That would strike me as being incredibly stupid, because people must surely be aware that their kids might not want to conform to tired old stereotypes about the sexes.

Or is there something else?

And in some cases it’s the opposite way. I had a mild preference for a boy because I was worried I wouldn’t understand or relate to a girl (despite having once been a girl myself). I knew that there would be outside influence in terms of gender stereotypes, no matter what we did at home. I was worried that parenting a girl would be harder than parenting a boy.

I had one of each. With our daughter, we managed to avoid too much gender stereotyping at home, but as soon as she went to pre-school and made friends with other little girls, we were suddenly inundated with pink and glitter and princesses. 😩 And even when you try to choose more gender neutral clothes and toys for your child, other people will buy your child presents at Christmas and on birthdays, and many will be strongly gender stereotyped.

But it all evened out in the end. Her brother came along, and he too liked princesses and glitter and baby dolls. Now as young adults, they each have a range of preferences and interests and neither is confirming very strongly to gender stereotypes. I have a great relationship with them both, as does DH.

The bit about parenting girls being harder than boys turned out to be true though 😂 (For me- I’m sure others have different experiences).

I trying to think how else to explain what I see as an unfair hypocrisy, which can be incredibly unfair to pregnant women.

Let's take an example:
A women is onboard with the idea that men can't become women. She's aware of the statistical differences between them. I use the phrase "statistical differences" because we can't say that men are taller than women (not all are). We can say men are statistically more likely to be taller than women. This is what I mean by "statiistical differences". Some other statistical differences she is aware of:

1. Women consistently score higher in tender-mindedness, empathy, and politeness.
2. Men score higher on assertiveness and excitement-seeking.

This same woman gets pregnant. How can she not have an opinion on which sex she has when she knows these differences and what an important person this child will be in her life?

To be clear, I'm not saying it is rationale, but it is a normal feeling many women will experience because we know there is a difference between the sexes (on average) and they are not mutable. Obviously, once she gets to know her baby all these "statistical differences" become irrelevant and she can focus instead how unique the child is (likely many stereotypical traits will be there but some nonsterotypical ones will also).

My point, perhaps not very well made, is that I think it would help to address how normal a feeling it is to have a preference, so these women don't feel shamed.

Now I know many of you will say, "we don't shame them". I'm gald to hear that, but many do - just look at the countless threas where posters even suggest they are not fit to be a parent! I wanted a thread as a push-back to that view.

Despite the many posts suggesting otherwise, I don't want a argument. I wanted a discussion on whether a preference for gender is really that unreasonable and if we can be more supportive of women feeling gender disappointment by not gaslighting them with, "you shouldn't care".

This same woman gets pregnant. How can she not have an opinion on which sex she has when she knows these differences and what an important person this child will be in her life?

How can she not have an opinion? Very easily, she can just be happy that she is going to have a child and not care whether it's a boy or girl. You seem to be excluding this possibility for some reason.

Of course some women don't care. But many do.

FFS. The obtuseness on this thread is off the charts.

Let's take an example that has come up time and again on MN...

A poster is a long standing member of a lovely, supportive group that has historically been female only. She's upset because another member of the group has invited her husband/brother/neighbour/friend along, Nigel. Nigel is a nice chap, but somehow having a male in the group has really changed the dynamics. The safe, female connection that the group enjoyed has been disrupted.

I can guarantee that many (most?) replies will sympathise with the poster, and acknowledge that the companionship that a women gain from other women can be unique and quite very different from their relationships with men. It's not just about genitals and toilets and male pattern violence.

I think to insist that this isn't the case is actually quite anti-feminist.

How about just teaching her sons to be polite and empathetic, if those are qualities that she particularly values? Or teaching her daughters to be assertive and adventurous?

Honestly, you sound ridiculous and horribly sexist in your attitudes. Maybe try looking at children as individual people with their own unique combination of traits?

Ooh this one will run and run.

The “statistical” differences you describe are not large at all. What people fail to understand is that the majority of people fall into the middle of those categories - there is significant overlap between the sexes. Preferring one sex over the other because you hope that the child will fall into one area of the chart over another is to misunderstand the statistics.

It also ignores the fact that how you bring up your own child and the environment you choose to bring them up in, the society and culture you’re in, affects those behaviours more so than the child’s sex.

If I want to bring up a child that is empathetic and polite that’s on me to do so, not to hope for a girl and take no action to develop those traits if the child is male.

What's all that got to with changing sex?

Okay, but that is a completely different scenario. You go into pregnancy knowing that it's a 50/50 chance and out of your control so it is silly to be completely devastated by the sex of the baby when you knew it could be either.

That's more like going to an open to all book club and then being upset when it's not female only.

Do you not think there is a genetic basis for a statistical difference then? Hypothetically, do you think we could teach all men to be as empathetic as women, and women as excitment-seeking as men?

I don't believe people can change sex. Because they can't. That's a fact.

I don't understand sex/gender preferences because they are based on stupid stereotypes that shouldn't exist.

I'm quite a stereotypically feminine woman. I love sparkly things and ballet, hardly ever wear trousers. I love baking, cooking, theatre. I also love DIY, dinosaurs, action films and huge rollercoasters.

I have 2 sons. They love all of the above. They, on the whole, like more stereotypical "female" things than they do "male" things. They are still men. They will always be men. Letting them join the women only group I attend would change the dynamic even though they are lovely, kind, gentle etc etc.

I don't understand how your 2 points are opposed at all.

Broadly, yes. There are some nuances but on the whole our brains aren’t wired that differently.
What is your evidence that those traits are purely biological?

But you can have a preference for a female-only bookclub, surely? That doesn't mean you don't come to love the mixed bookclub...

Yes, I think we could. I firmly believe that it's more about socialisation than it is about biology.

Well the many, many studies that have been done all over the world from many different cultures.

My sons are at least as empathic as me, maybe more so in some cases. I'm far more thrill/adventure seeking than them.