to want to carry on working so I do not end up doing childcare?

[skizz]

I mentioned to my DC that I was thinking about retiring, just exploring options, nothing even decided yet. Their immediate response was along the lines of “oh that would be perfect, you could help with childcare, school pickups, when they are ill, that sort of thing.”

I actually do not want to give up work and slide into being on-call childcare. I like working. I like having my own routine, my own space and my own independence. The idea that any flexibility automatically gets translated into availability for childcare does not appeal to me whatsoever.

I have friends who do regular childcare for their grandchildren and honestly they are constantly picking up bugs, dealing with sickness, plans being cancelled last minute because a child is ill. It looks absolutely exhausting. It is not how they imagined retirement but they got railroaded into it by their daughters/DILs.

I would rather keep working than be doing childcare.

You are completely missing the point though - you are very clearly demonising the daughters and DILs, and mothers in general, while complaining about the burden on grandmothers. It's essentially the same problem - default parenting falls on the mother, then it rolls to the grandmother. Is that right? Of course not. But you are complaining about one and ignoring the other.

You will notice though.... in all my responses I've said parents and grandparents. I haven't once singled out grandmothers. Ultimately this is what you seem to have a bee in your bonnet about.

It's really weird. I see this kind of comment so frequently, and yet I know no-one like that. All my friends who are childminding their grandchildren, had no equivalent help from their parents.

And again, government statistics show that my generation is doing vastly more child care than either of the generations before them.

I am actually interested in the moral basis for why you believe you should be able to have this particular type of very free retirement focused only on your own enjoyment. It certainly doesn’t come from the Judeo-Christian tradition that much of our moral beliefs are based on, for example. What’s the core argument here?

Mostly it seems to come down to
”I’ve done my time”, which is either a restatement that after a certain age one should be entirely free, regardless of ability or need, or else a belief that each person in society should give some fixed amount of effort regardless of ability and upon reaching that threshold should stop. But it doesn’t seem to get justified further and neither interpretation seems obviously true to me.

The other argument is “I want to / don’t want to” which only makes sense as a justification within a fairly extremely individualistic worldview (surprisingly common on Mumsnet, I find, but again never really justified further and imo totally inconsistent with how we actually function as a species and incapable of standing up to serious scrutiny).

Exactly!

My friends agreed to some childcare but it grew until it took over their lives. Started off with one grandchild and then more came along. Then to avoid favouritism, they had to take care of the additional grandchildren.

In the cases of my friends, none of the grandfathers get asked to do any childcare.

That is what is making me think twice about retiring. I get left alone now because I am working.

I think you need to make it very clear that even if you retire that you won’t be doing regular childcare. It sounds like you’re ok with adhoc/when you want to see the grandkids and have a good time with them sort of childcare and there’s nothing wrong with that. My mother was very clear that she’s done her dues raising her own children and would do fun things with the grandkids but wouldn’t be doing anything regular or things that didn’t fit in with their travel plans etc and tbh I respect far more than grandparents who provide all this amazing childcare and then begrudge their children or feel stuck and resentful. Grandparents should be able to have a ‘fun’ relationship with their grandkids not one that is solely based on childcare.

How am I clearly demonising the daughters and DILs? I am talking about the experiences of my friends not my own. Like I said, I don't know the DDs and DILs.

@skizz

When I was pregnant with DS1 my mum (working at the time) made it clear that she was not going to retire to provide childcare. When she did retire she and Dad had so many wonderful plans that it didn't occur to me to disrupt them. She did have them 'as gramma, not babysitter' when she was around (they travelled extensively) but I didn't expect her to do school drops/picks or sick days, although she did offer on occasion. My MiL, at her request, took care of DS2 in the morning for 2 years after he was born (I dropped DS1 off at school). DH worked a night shift so he took over when he woke up.

I can assure you that both my mum and my MiL received the same tender care in their declining years despite my MiL (on the whole) providing much more care than my mum. Loving care is not 'transactional'. I viewed it as a privilege to repay, in part, the care our mothers gave us as children. And not as some sort of 'payback' for the care they did or did not provide for our children.

Can I tell you something that might make you feel better? I don’t want to do it either and I’m considering going back to work to avoid it. And…. I benefitted from lots of free childcare from both my parents and in laws 🙈

Why do I need a moral basis for wanting a free retirement?

I properly cannot understand this. What do you mean? That a person can’t just say no to something they don’t want to do? I don’t want to do lots of things, so I say no. It never really occurred to me that anyone would feel entitled to ask why I don’t want to do those things. Surely it’s no one else’s business why I don’t want to.

I love the honesty!

I enjoy my job and I get left alone which is wonderful after bringing up my 4 DC for so many years. Even having the grandchildren over as lovely as they are for a few hours is utterly exhausting! That much is fine but I really do not want to be doing regular childcare or looking after a baby again.

Absolute best advice given by the presenter of a retirement course I attended.

You aren’t the only one planning for your retirement, others will be planning for your retirement too.

So when asked how you’ll spend your time you say “I’m taking a gap year. I won’t be taking on any commitments or responsibilities, I’m looking forward to my freedom!” Say it on repeat until the penny drops.

Do not waver, do not weaken.

I do not think I've actually read such an audacious post in a long time. Do you really think you are entitled to the time and labour of others and they should have no say in it? It is a similar argument many men have against women's emancipation but being able to choose how many children you have/even if you have children and how you wish to live your life is so important.

I said unreasonable on the basis you blame the daughters/DILs exclusively, what about the sons and SILs!

Other than that, I don’t disagree!

Like others of said you just say what you want to do, if you don’t want to do any then I guess that’s up to you but you might find you enjoy spending a bit of quality time with your GC.
my mum since retiring is just very clear about what she’s willing to do and I never ask anything above that unless it was an emergency !

I don't blame them - it is what my friends told me about their experiences of being retired grandmothers.

What is this new fashion for calling things Judeo-Christian?! It’s strange. If you going to link the two you may as well throw Islam in there as well, because Jesus features in the Koran. The three religions are linked as the Abrahamic religions but separate. It’s Judaism and Christianity not a mesh of both.

It certainly seems as if my DC have plans for my retirement!

Honestly work is easier than looking after children!

Perhaps it doesn't sound so good. People might actually start thinking others might wish to use religion to control others for their own benefit.

Interesting how women are expected to justify refusing offering free labour (either morally or otherwise) @UraniumFlowerpot and men are just - not. I wonder why not?

Sorry if this has been suggested (haven’t RTFT) but could you work part time? Giving up work completely can sometimes leave you with a bit of a vacuum. If you’re still keeping your hand in (your DC don’t need to know how much or how little!) you won’t have time for childcare.

That’s just another assertion without justification though. We all have a lot of expectations of each others behavior. Like how I expect my partner not to cheat and think it’s wrong if he does, I’d think it odd if he just stated that he wanted to so he did and why should anyone feel entitled to ask why he did it.

But in fact a lot of our social expectations are now encoded into law.

We (in the uk) have decided that health care should be available regardless of economic status, and we all sacrifice part of our income to pay for that. You can’t just say no. There’s a continual modification of this kind of law as our shared beliefs and priorities change. If someone asked me why I think that everyone should have access to healthcare I’d make arguments about fundamental human worth and dignity, as well as making an appeal to both empathy and self interest by pointing out that health shocks can happen to anyone.

At the moment it’s fairly well protected in law that people over a certain age don’t have to contribute economically, while there is an expectation that most adults under that age do. I am raising the question of whether that should be maintained or modified and on what moral basis. One potential benefit to society of older people not having to work for money is that they can support family life, volunteer in their communities etc. It’s not enforced in any law but it’s been a part of the social contract for a long time. If retirees are asserting that they should have no responsibility to wider society I find that interesting and worth questioning.

I have also pointed out, as have many others, that given the society we currently live in op absolutely can say no to childcare (as can her friends!) but she keeps coming back saying that there’s too much pressure and moral expectation or whatever. So I’m interested to explore that. Presumably the moral pressure is of the form that it’s good to help family and you are able and we need the help. What’s the counterargument? I’m not as able as you think and your needs are exaggerated is a sensible counter argument, imo. Whereas I just don’t want to simply begs the question.

I am considering this, thank you. Part time and setting up a business (which I want to do anyway) and then hopefully things can carry on as they are with the DC sorting out their own childcare.

I can't imagine getting to a stage of not wanting to do everything I could to make my kids' lives a little bit better/easier. Mine are young teens, so hopefully no grandchildren in the near future, but if I am lucky enough to have some one day, I also can't imagine not wanting to spend as much time as possible getting to know them.
I understand not wanting to commit to school runs etc, but it comes across as if you would resent any extra time you'd be expected to spend with your grandchildren. Would you help in a pinch? For example if parents have to work later due to an important meeting or something?

I already do help them to make their lives easier and better.

I do not want to retire then be doing school runs and looking after my baby grandchild several days a week.

Does that make me resentful? It is not just helping in a pinch. There is some sort of issue going on every week that I would most likely be asked to help with.

It is easy to say you cannot imagine not wanting to spend as much time as possible with the grandchildren to get to know them when you do not have any. I have 9.