Stop being grabby and entitled and using false arguments to try to turn your mother into your servants

[Youlittlenightmare]

Posting in AIBU for traction, not because I think I'm wrong - I know I'm right in fact :) But this is where many of the grabby, problematic mumsnetters turn up to have a whinge and make false arguments. So this is for all of you.

And let’s be clear, if you're a grandmother who genuinely loves caring for your grandchildren, good for you. This thread is not for or about you. If your own mother happily provides childcare and truly enjoys it, lovely. This thread is not or or about you either.

This is about dismantling a stubborn and deeply illogical belief that if a grandmother declines the burden of childcare, she somehow forfeits the right to see her grandchildren.

No one is owed childcare from their mother. End.

It does not matter whether she had help when raising you, other people’s sacrifices are not items on a balance sheet for you to cash in later. Older women are not public utilities, nor are their remaining years a communal resource to be allocated by their adult children. They are human beings with dignity, autonomy, and the absolute right to say no for any reason whatsoever.

They have already done the work. They raised their children. Their duty is complete.

But what is especially irritating is how often two completely separate things are deliberately conflated with the dreary refrain of “Well then she can’t expect visits from the grandchildren.”

This is a logical failure.

Childcare is work. It is labour intensive, draining, time consuming, and often physically demanding.

A family visit is not work. Bringing your children to see their grandmother, spending time together, sharing conversation and affection, that is family life. It is a relationship, not a work shift.

To collapse those into the same category is a false equivalence.

If you dislike your mother so much that visiting her feels like a burden, like work, then of course you definitely do NOT want her to shoulder the burden of your job of parenting. That would be quite mad, imagine wanting your children under the care of a woman you would prefer never to spend time with.

If seeing her is a chore and you consider it a job then asking her to work for you (generally for free) is absurd.

If she wants to see you more often than you can manage that is QUITE another matter, just see her when you can, like normal people do.

But if you love your mother, you will want to see her because she is family, because you enjoy her company, because relationships exist for their own sake.

That bond is not, and should never be, contingent on whether she performs even more physical labour after decades of already doing exactly that.

These are the three coherent possibilities - you visit your mother with the children because you love her and enjoy being together. Otherwise known as normal family life.

The second possiblity is that you do not want a relationship with your mother, in which case you would neither visit nor expect free labour from her.

The third possiblitiy is that your mother freely chooses to provide childcare, which is her decision alone and not something anyone is entitled to demand nor contingent upon anything else.

What is not logically defensible is weaponising access to grandchildren as punishment because she refused unpaid work. That's coercion dressed up badly in sentiment.

It's not complicated - family connection and visits are a relationship. Childcare is labour. These two concepts are not interchangeable, and one should never be made conditional on the other or compared to the other.

And finally those of you who claim the relationship with her grandchildren will be stronger if an exhausted older women is forced to do your job of parenting - maybe. Maybe not. Nobody has the slightest idea of how kids will feel about their grandparents or parents as they grow up and a lot of grandmothers would gladly relinquish a "closer" relationship with their grandchildren if it meant they could put their exhausted feet up after a lifetime of labour, or go out when they want as they want doing what they want, without first running it past their dictator daughters.

So, all of you who keep trying to confuse what is actually a very simple concept with this nonsense - just stop now.

If you are demanding child care from your mother and trying to couch it in any way as anything she "should" do because "reasons", trying to conflate famly visit with her doing unpaid work that she did for decades already - you're an awful person, and are perpetuating the misogyny of treating women like commodities to be shared.

Stop throwing a tantrum, get on with parenting your own kids and visit your mother, or don't. For many of you, not visiting would be doing her a favour.

I am an older woman who is happy to agree to the intensive labour of free childcare a couple of times a week because I choose to. An older woman who would instantly tell you exactly where to go if you ever asserted your entitlement or attempted to tell me what I "should" do with my own precious, irreplaceable and limited time on this earth. An older woman who will decline childcare if I want to, when I want to and be treated respectfully regardless.

Signed - an older woman who is sick of your entitled bullshit. We see you.

Stop it.

My mother is dead I miss her dearly, I have 2 children and if she were still here I'd dearly love to visit her with them. I do have a mil, I find her an absolute chore because she's the most negative woman about everything. However she loves our kids and shows her adoration opening. She does some childcare which is great because she gets her time with them and I don't have to spend too much time with her. The childcare she provides could easily be done by after school, she does 3-6 hours a week with them spread over 2 days.

Going to visit her IS a chore, I try to send my husband and he doesn't want to go without me, so I go. But she wants whole days of us entirely on her terms and it's a bit of a nightmare with a Neurodivergent child and a child who hates travelling.

I think you oversimplify things, grandmothers who think us taking our kids to visit them as often as they like is just 'normal family life's are asking the childs mother to family like they want to family. I want to spend my leisure time with people I like, to have a break occasionally from family life, I work more or less full time, so does my husband, I want time with him and our kids just us. There isn't a lot of spare time when both parents work and we like spending time as a unit and we don't always want to listen to my mil gossip and pose for photos for her to brag to distant family members we don't know.

So yes, visits feel like work because we're trying to fit so much in and if you disappeared I to motherhood that's no reason we should. You say you did your time, we want to enjoy our family unit not do our time.
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I do extensive childcare for several grandchildren, but I totally get those who don’t want to get particularly involved.

I don’t do childcare because I feel I ought to or because I feel I owe my children anything. If I’d felt pressured or obligated in any way I would not have agreed to do it. To me whether or not I had help when I was a young Mum is irrelevant and would not influence me one bit. As it happens I had no help whatsoever when bringing up my family but as I say, that is irrelevant in my opinion. My children do not have an automatic right to receive my help with childcare but I choose to do it because we are a very close family, we love and respect each other very much and I want to help them.

Looking after young children even for short periods as a grandmother can be exhausting and often very stressful. Quite daunting at times in fact. I am totally weary both physically and mentally at the end of my period of childcare and know that it affects my health as I pick up every illness they get. But I choose to do it.

For me it’s the most fulfilling thing I do in my life because I love my grandchildren so much and they love me. I’m now struggling more as I’m getting older and am in more pain with age related issues. But I’ll keep going as long as I can as it provides real purpose in my life.

My choice.

I agree that the relationship between GP and GC should not be dependent on free childcare. But I'm aware that sometimes people claim this is what's happening when actually there's far more to it.
My parents provided pretty much full time child care for siblings' DC but made it clear that they would not be offering the same for me as we live further away. We hadn't asked, or expected, them to and agree that it would have been unreasonable. But they then complained that they didn't see our DC every week as when they did see siblings' DC every week. When I pointed out that it was very different since they were childcare for siblings, they misquoted this as me saying they could only see the DC if they were childcare.
When we did want to see my parents, it always had to be on their terms- always at their place, at the weekend, usually with other family members too and they always wanted us to stay over. This meant a visit took almost all weekend, was never relaxing and none of us slept properly so we'd be shattered on the Monday morning for work/school. Whereas MIL (who lived a similar distance away) would pop over for tea after school occasionally, or join us for an afternoon out somewhere that the DC wanted to visit, or come over and spent a few hours at our place with the DC whilst we went shopping etc. My parents (who declined offers to do the same) always complained that we showed favouritism towards MIL and were trying to make our DC closer to her.

I've been quite sad by some MN's on here with regard to their threats to grandparents (mainly their mum) if child care not provided. That the grandchildren will have no close relationship if not with grandparents 8hrs a day (!), that they'd be too busy to visit at all with the grandchildren if no care would be provided. It's been really unkind and controlling, what a real shame that people treat their own mums this way.

Childcare should be offered freely, not demanded/blackmailed. While I feel sympathy for busy mums and dads, having a child is ultimately a lifestyle choice and the care of that child is their responsibility 100%. This raised by 'village' crap is just blackmail too, if any coercive mum gave two hoots about being part of a village, they'd not treat their own mums this way.

I don't think it matters for babysitting I agree but it does matter for the visiting. My mum would take us to her mum's twice a week and we'd spend all day there or go home from school to granny's and mummy would be there, because she didn't work. She could visit with her family all day long with us there too.

I work. My kids are in childcare. I don't want to be spending all my time with them with my mil. I just don't.

Yep, shattered and with an entire weekend of washing, cleaning. Grocery shopping and school prep to fit into the remaining couple of hours. Eff that for a carry on.

My sil expected my dm to give up her work to care for her kids and repeatedly badgered her to 'think about it ' she did expect me to provide free childcare at one time aswell because I was sahm and sure what else would I be doing. She had a rota made up before even asking. I felt pushed into it but it didn't work out . I did it for a while but my own kids extra activities and appointments were clashing and I had to put my own family first . My dm has them more than she admits .

It just all seems unrealistic, from grandmothers taking on full- time childcare to the constant illnesses in children. What is the solution ? Is it really impossible for a family to survive on one wage ? Or with mothers working part- time ?

I see what you mean - hadn't seen most of those or realised there were so many.

I do see a lot of parents who do get help - who take if for grantedand who quietly later re-write history (MIL included).

Also remember a 70 year old in tears at school gate picking up several GC as her youngest had just announced pg and expectation her Mum would offer same childcare support that other GC had - she was in tears thinking how the fuck she could still walk up the steep hill to school and watch all the GC when that child started school and she be 75. Several Mum were related to her - necie cousins child and they clamed her down and apparently spoke to family and next school year there were alternative arrangements in place.

I expect to work till 70 if I can but that's not going to be as taxing as long steep walk and daily childcare for multiple young kids.

@catlessladyYES! That’s exactly it. If your children work full time in demanding jobs and you don’t do childcare or drop in for short periods that are not burdensome, it is unreasonable to expect frequent visits on your terms. That’s not withholding access to the grandkids, it’s just th consequences of your choices

My grandparents never did childcare except in an emergency. We saw both sets every weekend. They weren't on the doorstep and none of them drove, and I look back at those happy memories with such joy. It built strong familial relationships and I recognise the sacrifice my parents made to enable that.

Do you invite your MIL to your house for a cup of tea? She clearly lives close enough for that to happen, if she does school pick ups.
Invite her when you have a commitment an hour or two later, and at least she's feel some value as a person in her own right, and not just someone who does you a favour.

As your children are school age, I'm sure you must have some reasons not to spend the whole day at hers. So visit her on days when your kids have a party or a club/activity in the afternoon.

I know that as my DGC get older, I will have to adjust to seeing less of them. It has started to happen already as the eldest has started school. Her social life has ramped up pretty quickly! But as they both get significantly older, they'll have more activities and seeing their friends will get more and more important.

So you or your DH need to start having those conversations with MIL now. Don't sound gridging about visiting her, just say that you value your family visits, but it's going to start getting impossible to spend as much time, due to the extra demand on their time, so you'll be catching up for cuppa and cake amounts of time, rather than full days.

What a sad post.

Yep. The village should work both ways. But there are many on Mumsnet who only want the receiving help element.

Research suggests caring for grandchildren may help reduce risks of developing dementia and cognitive decline in women. Something for the baby boomer generation to consider, along with the luck of the economic advantage they benefited from.

OP, you might benefit from talking to someone about why you despise younger women.

You mean like the OP, who implied that she received help from her own parents but doesn’t think she should provide any support to her own children or grandchildren?

All of our parents declined to look after the kids even once every few months for a hour eventually. They then declined visits. By the time dd was 3 we was wasn't welcome to drive the 150 miles up to in laws. Dd is 11 now.

There's a balance between grandparents should never be expected to have the kids and having a bond. In theory you can build a bond with parents there at visits, but when even that becomes a burden the relationship is dead.

We are to tired for a visit this evening. We are too busy this weekend. We are on holiday. I think three consecutive refusals and no suggestions of a day to pop around that would suit we stopped offering to see them. That turned into a once a year offer. That then turned into no offer.

One fact is also that some grand parent dislike there grandkids. Not just for childcare. They can't tolerate their existence.

Honestly I think grandparents have to choose what kind of relationship they want to have with their grandchildren. I would never assume any grandparent should be used instead of regular childcare, but active involvement is going to make grandchildren care about you far more.

Both mine and DH’s parents live 90mins drive away in opposite directions. My dad is not the sort to do childcare and is very much a ‘sit in the armchair’ grandad when the kids visit. DS (4) is desperate to engage him in a game or conversation but Dad doesn’t really do any of that. Consequently visits are hard and tiring for me, and DS finds them tedious and boring. So we do them as infrequently as possible (even though I love my dad).

Alternatively, DH’s parents are actively involved, constantly offering ad hoc childcare, have filled their house with toys/high chairs/cots to make the visits easier and happily play with the children when around them. It’s easy to see who my DS wants to spend time with and looks forward to visiting. We probably see them most months as they come down and help out when they can between our visits.

I think it’s absolutely fine for grandparents to be hands off, but you don’t get to demand your grandkids will love and want to spend time with you if you give absolutely nothing back. That’s equally entitled in my view.

Yeah no weekend days with friends, no weekend clubs, no weekend days out just as a nuclear family, no being able to take the kids shopping for new shoes on a weekend. Seeing both sets of grandparents every weekend when both parents work leaves no time at all for any other parts of life.

I agree that childcare should not come as part of access to grandchildren. I have many friends and family members who rely on various amounts of grandparent childcare (some school holidays only, some before and after-school pickups and drop offs, some 2 days a week, some 5 days a week, one friend has her mum looking after the children 6 days a week). I also volunteer at a playgroup so interact with many grandparents. So I can see both sides.

I know from my volunteer experience that there are quite a few grandparents that feel railroaded into providing childcare or feel like they have taken too much on but feel they have no way to back out or reduce how much they provide.

I also know that many parents actually feel they do not have much choice. Due to the cost of living/ mortgages they really need to work. Grandparent offers of childcare significantly decrease nursery costs. When every penny is accounted for, grandparents saying they can no longer provide the level of childcare they previously did throws a huge spanner in the works. With nursery/ child minder places also in high demand, finding a place can be very difficult. This often leaks into negative reactions to grandparents withdrawing childcare. Same with when school holiday childcare is withdrawn. It is incredibly difficult to find school holiday childcare that covers working hours.

There is also the fact that when struggling financially and in terms of getting "breaks" and "adult time together" to strengthen the relationship between parents it builds resentment towards the grandparents. It is hard to see other parents (friends/ relatives) getting those "breaks" or childcare for free because their parents "step up" when you are having to pay for every minute of childcare. Many many parents feel like 2 people parenting children rather than the couple that fell in love and created children. Relationships suffer in those early years of parenthood. Seeing friends/ relatives who have parents who regularly take the children so they can go on dates/ undertake self care is hard when your own don't want to do so get those same levels of dates/ self care you are paying babysitters.

In quite a few cases where grandparent feel like they have taken on too much it's been that mum starts thinking about going back to work, she thinks of going back 3 or 4 days a week (sometimes full time). She looks at nurseries/ childminders and 1 of 4 things happen:

1. nursery has space and it's £££, grandparents offer to do 1 or 2 days a week so child is at nursery less, parent accepts place at nursery for 3 days a week. Nursery fills the other 2 days so there is no space for child to go up to 5 days. Parent is stuck for childcare the other 2 days if grandparent pulls out. Mother/ father take view that grandparent had offered initially and needs to honour the childcare provided until space comes available next term/ year at nursery/ childminder.

1. Nursery/ childminder only has space 2 or 3 days a week. Mother really wants to/ really needs to return full time. Asks grandparent to do the other days as temporary whilst a space becomes available. There is nothing more permanent than a temporary solution. Plus extra days at childcare is £££ that makes it hard financially so continue using grandparent care "until child goes to school". Then it evolves to drop off/ pick up because you need to book into breakfast/ after-school club and there is high demand and again ££.

1. Both parents need to work for financial security. Nursery/ childminders are £££ and pretty much wiping out 1 parents wage. Parents ask both sets grandparents to help 2 - 3 days a week each. The whole financial security of the the family depends on grandparents providing childcare for free.

1. Both parents go back to work. Start looking at nursery/ childminders. Grandparents are absolutely against the idea of grandchildren "been shoved off to nursery/ childminder", "I never shoved my children off, how awful they are sending them to strangers at 9 months old". Grandparents decide to be the "saviour" the grandchild needs and offer childcare "because darling grandchildren should not be shoved off to people who don't love them". Parents really need to work financially and depend on that care. Any time any suggestion is made to use wrap around/ childcare it's "you shouldn't be shoving the children off" style arguments.

What is really needed is plentiful provision of accessible priced childcare for all children.

It also needs everyone to be very honest with each other about childcare expectations and when it becomes too much.

In some of the cases I know where grandparents admit to overwhelm and wanting to cut days/ times it's when:

The baby becomes a toddler/ preschooler who no longer naps and no longer goes in the pushchair willingly and wants to walk everywhere and runs. Looking after a baby who naps a couple of times a day, is limited in mobility and will sit in a pushchair is very different to a toddler who doesn't nap or whose parents want naps capped so they sleep at night so grouchy from 2pm every day, runs everywhere, tips everything out and is constantly on the go, fights going in pushchairs and has tantrums.

Another point of overwhelm I've found is when having to do school runs with younger ones in tow. Having to get children out the house on time for school with a toddler or baby everyday is hard work. Same with pick up, you are on the clock all day, can't go too far because you need to be back for pick up.

The most common one amongst many grandparents at our playgroup is when it goes from looking after 1 DGC to 2 or 3 DGC. When DGC gets a sibling so there is a child and usually a toddler as well to care for. Or when DGC get a cousin and their other child also wants childcare. This can end up with grandparents doing child care for DC1 2 days a week and DC2 2 different days a week leading to 4 days of the week providing childcare.

I do think that this conflict arises because lots of adult children, like me, have not actually lived at home as an adult. I would visit my parents in uni holidays and then somewhere between every 2-6 weeks as an adult with a demanding job before kids and would call and message around that. For a while, when I had kids and the grandparents were very enthusiastic for their first grandchildren, there was an expectation of constant visits to see the grandchildren where they would be entertained rather than be helping, which frankly felt like a lot when it was beyond what had happened before children and I had less time to myself and with my husband than before. It did feel like a burden. It is, to be honest, work to entertain other adults who don’t help out at home, or to pack up the car and be visiting all the time, rather than napping or doing stuff when the kids are napping at home when you are also working demanding jobs. Even if you love them. I had to decline visits and work out what was comfortable for me. It has settled down now though - my kids have a good relationship with their grandparents, but no one is expected to do vast amounts of emotional or physical labour.

I have to admit I found IL vsist a burden especially when kids were young. The weren't great round young kids nap and meals and wanted entertaining all the time - it did feel like a burden.

Also over time it started bing us doing all the traveling and at one point I had to put my foot down and point out 5 people traveling all needing a lot of stuff carried on trains vs two adults who need less stuff is silly - and they switch to doing more of the traveling.

It did settle down - and the kids are close to them and in late teens can see that benefit to them. It did often felt like we didn't get a weekend and normal task had to get put on hold or done in the week which got easier older kids got.

It's also partially why trips to my parents where kids were treated like a burden didn't feel worth doing in the end - it's a lot of time and money which in end went eslewhere the result is they aren't as close to my parents at all.

I really like this post and it does make a lot of sense. I am lucky enough to have my mother want to look after my child to give us a break a few times a month, and it makes me feel like I should probably just check in to make sure she's actually okay with this and she can sometimes do this for a few days in a row and it must be pretty exhausting given her age. I also feel like I often expect her to do this so it's definitely opened my eyes actually.

Of course I do, the days she has the kids she stays for tea, why does she have to be an important person to me? I'm certainly not important to her. This is a woman who noted after a year that every picture she had of my eldest was her and my husband with him. Shed literally take him from me and hand me the camera.

She's not my mother.

My husband is welcome to visit her daily if he wishes, he can go anytime, he can take the kids if he likes. Why is it on me? If you're not about taking the labour of women for your own benefit or whatever you're protesting about why is it on me to coddle my mil?

If she didn't provide childcare? My kids would go to after-school as they do any other day we both work, she has them because she insists. Infact I'm off with them this week and she is annoyed she's not still taking my eldest to his sports club, because I want to get to enjoy this time with him.

Why are women expected to provide for their mil and not their own sons? I literally will try to send my husband to his mum's of an evening or weekend and he's horrified

Thank you OP for stating what needs to be said.

Although I have only limited experience of these types of situations it goes back to the expectations of women in society. I say this as a dear friend gets screwed over by her dh and inlaws around property. You know, the classic, does all the caregiving, pays the taxes and all maintenance and oh, finds out she has nothing. It's the expectation that women will give, give, and give some more for nothing in return. The return simply being peace, a life, autonmy, respect....

Another thread on here, I think, that I can't forget. The gist being there were eg 1000 people at the very successful father's funeral and about 10 at the mother's. The mother being someone who had lived for the family, given up a career, supported the husband and was therefore part of a unit. But never recognised for her contributions. It's not that she was forced to give up a career, other than generational expectation. It was the lack of recognition and respect. I've seen this so often. It haunts me.

Even older women who deserve so much are seen as undeserving or unrecognised as individuals. Only there to serve others.... And so this thread fills me with desperate rage.

Thank you again OP.

You make such good points. I feel similarly.
I have 2 sons, not daughters but I have a good relationship with both my dils and my DH and I do some childcare together. Totally our choice.
Fortunately both my dils are lovely people who are not entitled and would never dream of demanding anything. I think that just makes us want to help them all out more.