Stop being grabby and entitled and using false arguments to try to turn your mother into your servants

[Youlittlenightmare]

Posting in AIBU for traction, not because I think I'm wrong - I know I'm right in fact :) But this is where many of the grabby, problematic mumsnetters turn up to have a whinge and make false arguments. So this is for all of you.

And let’s be clear, if you're a grandmother who genuinely loves caring for your grandchildren, good for you. This thread is not for or about you. If your own mother happily provides childcare and truly enjoys it, lovely. This thread is not or or about you either.

This is about dismantling a stubborn and deeply illogical belief that if a grandmother declines the burden of childcare, she somehow forfeits the right to see her grandchildren.

No one is owed childcare from their mother. End.

It does not matter whether she had help when raising you, other people’s sacrifices are not items on a balance sheet for you to cash in later. Older women are not public utilities, nor are their remaining years a communal resource to be allocated by their adult children. They are human beings with dignity, autonomy, and the absolute right to say no for any reason whatsoever.

They have already done the work. They raised their children. Their duty is complete.

But what is especially irritating is how often two completely separate things are deliberately conflated with the dreary refrain of “Well then she can’t expect visits from the grandchildren.”

This is a logical failure.

Childcare is work. It is labour intensive, draining, time consuming, and often physically demanding.

A family visit is not work. Bringing your children to see their grandmother, spending time together, sharing conversation and affection, that is family life. It is a relationship, not a work shift.

To collapse those into the same category is a false equivalence.

If you dislike your mother so much that visiting her feels like a burden, like work, then of course you definitely do NOT want her to shoulder the burden of your job of parenting. That would be quite mad, imagine wanting your children under the care of a woman you would prefer never to spend time with.

If seeing her is a chore and you consider it a job then asking her to work for you (generally for free) is absurd.

If she wants to see you more often than you can manage that is QUITE another matter, just see her when you can, like normal people do.

But if you love your mother, you will want to see her because she is family, because you enjoy her company, because relationships exist for their own sake.

That bond is not, and should never be, contingent on whether she performs even more physical labour after decades of already doing exactly that.

These are the three coherent possibilities - you visit your mother with the children because you love her and enjoy being together. Otherwise known as normal family life.

The second possiblity is that you do not want a relationship with your mother, in which case you would neither visit nor expect free labour from her.

The third possiblitiy is that your mother freely chooses to provide childcare, which is her decision alone and not something anyone is entitled to demand nor contingent upon anything else.

What is not logically defensible is weaponising access to grandchildren as punishment because she refused unpaid work. That's coercion dressed up badly in sentiment.

It's not complicated - family connection and visits are a relationship. Childcare is labour. These two concepts are not interchangeable, and one should never be made conditional on the other or compared to the other.

And finally those of you who claim the relationship with her grandchildren will be stronger if an exhausted older women is forced to do your job of parenting - maybe. Maybe not. Nobody has the slightest idea of how kids will feel about their grandparents or parents as they grow up and a lot of grandmothers would gladly relinquish a "closer" relationship with their grandchildren if it meant they could put their exhausted feet up after a lifetime of labour, or go out when they want as they want doing what they want, without first running it past their dictator daughters.

So, all of you who keep trying to confuse what is actually a very simple concept with this nonsense - just stop now.

If you are demanding child care from your mother and trying to couch it in any way as anything she "should" do because "reasons", trying to conflate famly visit with her doing unpaid work that she did for decades already - you're an awful person, and are perpetuating the misogyny of treating women like commodities to be shared.

Stop throwing a tantrum, get on with parenting your own kids and visit your mother, or don't. For many of you, not visiting would be doing her a favour.

I am an older woman who is happy to agree to the intensive labour of free childcare a couple of times a week because I choose to. An older woman who would instantly tell you exactly where to go if you ever asserted your entitlement or attempted to tell me what I "should" do with my own precious, irreplaceable and limited time on this earth. An older woman who will decline childcare if I want to, when I want to and be treated respectfully regardless.

Signed - an older woman who is sick of your entitled bullshit. We see you.

Stop it.

Women's only use is chilcare and caring for others is the daily message we see and this is what parentys should be teaching their daughters it seems BUT people also need to say no

and if anyone wants to say to their mother (yes it rare to see fathers/grandfathers mentioned) ''if you dont provide me with free childcare I wont help you when you are old'' sure say it show how you are, if you cant handle the children you have stop having them

a village should also be mutual

But again people need to learn the word no

Is this all about this thread, perchance?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5517040-parents-expect-visits-but-wont-offer-help-with-childcare-fair?page=2&reply=151706978

I agree with everything you've said. I've always made it clear to my son if he has children I will not be raising them or taking care of them all the time. I want to go on days out with them and just have fun, I've done my child- raising

I'm not a grandmother, so have never been in this position. However, I have relatives, friends and acquaintances who have effectively brought up their grandchildren.

After years of working as well as being a carer for my parents and then my husband I'm now trying to make some kind of a new life for myself. I've been going to various classes at my local leisure centre.

At the leisure centre gym, I've spoken to some women who have told me that that they're not doing what they'd expected in retirement because they're spending so much time providing childcare.

One woman told me earlier that she was able to have a rare day to herself because her daughter is on holiday and looking after her own children; tomorrow, the woman is going to be looking after three under the age of 4 - two of her daughter's children and her son's baby. (No word of the men doing the childcare - only the mothers and the grandmother.)

She did tell me that she doesn't mind...but it seems to be quite a load for one woman around the age of 70.

I'd hope that in most cases that any childcare is being provided because the grandparent wishes to do so, but I've found myself taken aback by the number of posts on here where people assert that grandparents should provide childcare and deposits for houses, other forms of early inheritance...but should not expect any help from their offspring at all. It does seem a bit unbalanced to me.

I guess that my opinion is swayed by the fact that I've seen family members being taken advantage of.

One relative paid for a large house so that her daughter, SIL and their two children could move in with her and her husband. They had an agreement that the younger couple would only have the two.

Next thing there was an accidental pregnancy which did not work out...quickly followed by another which did. The retired couple finished up organising the children, the family meals...

Another relative found to her consternation that her daughter and SIL had only taken out an interest only mortgage on their house, in the expectation that the relative and her husband would eventually move into a retirement flat and hand over the keys to their own house to the daughter's family. The daughter had a shock.

It's about a plethora of threads demanding that women act as unpaid servants for their adult children, not one in particular, I see this illogical argument trotted out a lot on these demanding hateful threads.

Damn right!
Stop using women as free labour!

I wonder what would happen to society if grandmothers collectively said no ? The government policies themselves, society itself seems to rely on them, which is even worse than the individual daughters doing it.

Yes, I have seen it too. The misogyny and frankly the cruelty of some of these threads, and these adult daughters, is truly disturbing. I have seen it too, one older woman I knew, my kids were still in school, she was parenting her two grandchildren for all drop offs and pick ups and after school care - from too separate daughters. At 60 that wasn't too bad. The years rolled on. By 70 she looked absolutely defeated and depressed. She didn't dare speak up. It was appalling.

And the financial situation you mentioned - that's just next level entitlement.

These adult women should be deeply ashamed of themselves and I hope their declining years are as miserable and burdensome as they deserve.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
As someone who watched my mum blackmailed into childcare or she was threatened with NC with her grandchildren I totally agree.

Both my parents said before they died that regretted raising kids and then going on to partially raise grandkids when my sister was capable with no issues but hated being a parent and felt she was entitled “to a break”.

My mother was still providing childcare when she was dying of terminal cancer. I walked into her house once to see my 7 year old nephew standing on a stool, heating up beans on a gas hob with a frying pan. My mum was too ill to get up and my sister had “popped out for a few minutes” 3 hours ago.

I have friends who are now starting to become grandparents and are pressured into childcare when they just want to spend enjoyable time together.

You see so many posts on here saying women should be helping their children if they cared but men never have the same expectations on them.

Don’t have children if you are expecting someone else to give up their time involuntarily to help raise them.

The individual daughter? It’s surely both parents who are responsible for childcare and therefore both parents who are unreasonable to expect it of their parents?

There’s no point being outraged at expectations that older women provide free care whilst simultaneously assuming it’s the younger woman’s responsibility to provide childcare and her failing when she expects it of others.

Of course YANBU.

The expectation that grandmothers should provide free childcare but the same pressure is not directed towards grandfathers (or even the children’s own father) is an utter disgrace.

I didn’t realise this attitude was a ‘thing’ before I joined MN so I only hope it’s less prevalent in the real world.

I dont think it's the woman's sole responsibility but I think it is more daughters asking this of their own mothers. The men probably just leave them to sort it out

Sure.

All fine and I agree with a lot of it but there are as many threads on here from the children of entitled elderly parents demanding the earth of their burned out adult children. The thread that I’m presuming you're referencing, the parents in that are clearly as unreasonable as the OP. More so, because they expect her to be available to them at the drop of a hat but don’t wish to offer her any support in return whereas I think she would be less bothered about being on call to them if the offered her some support. As an aside, she was as equally frustrated with her dad as she was her mum.

I''ll add that I was a step-grandmother who was never allowed to have the title of granny. (I'm trying to be honest - I'm aware that no one has that entitlement and that I'm probably a bit bitter about it. Insert "I wasn't the OW" obligatory comment.). My understanding is that my husband's ex's boyfriends were all grandads. [ETA When step-grandad Number 1 died, the child's father had a bit too much to drink and complained to me that he should have left money to the child "because she called him 'Grandad'."]

Any presents - including money - that I handed over for the adult stepkids and now adult grandchild were willingly accepted. It soon became clear that my only worth was as a provider of presents and their father's carer and as someone who had helped out their mother when she was between partners.

The one time that I phoned to say that I was ill and that their father would need care if anything happened to me, the response was "You're not thinking of leaving him, are you?" Cheeky cow.

I finally blew my top after doing all the work for the funeral on my own and sitting in the funeral car on my own. (To be fair, it was lockdown, but at least the grandchild could have attended. The adult children were scared for their health, I was told. They thought that the funeral would be too upsetting for the 20 yr old grandchild.) I'm not exaggerating when I say that I had a complete breakdown. All I wanted was for one of them to come to my door the day before the funeral. The rules would have allowed us to bubble up, I later realised.

I got a strange, jocular comment where they talked about arranging my funeral for me...and then something hapened which confirmed that I was on my own. 'Twas after that that I snapped.

The last communication was via a solicitor to say that they'd not been able to cash their cheques. (I sorted it. They'd farted about for a month, presumably checking whether the will was valid, and the bank had thought that they were scamming me. ) I'd sent them the family jewellery, medals etc. I only know they got there because I sent them tracked.

The following year, I sent off cheques for a wedding and graduation present on my late husband's behalf. This time I told them that no acknowledgment was required. One cheque was cashed as soon as it was received; the second cheque was cashed the following day.

I agree 100% with the OP. I am in my seventies and I see my dear granddaughter for about 3 hours a week, after school. We bake together, she has her tea here and then we play games together.

It's my choice and I absolutely love it. On the rare occasions when I haven't felt well enough to have her, I say so, and there are no hard feelings.

This is the way it should be.

I am so very sorry about what happened with your mum. That's just terrible. A lot of women deeply regret giving in to these coercive demands, and many are terrified to say no in case they are punished for it.

It's unbelievably misogynistic and cruel.

My God, that's awful. I am so soryr.

And if the sons were on here demanding it, whining about and behaving like nasty bullies, I'd have mentioned them. I can only respond to the people doing the bullying and whining and they are female, on this site. If the men are also in the background bullying snivelling and whining then their dictator wives and partners can pass the message along.

Thanks. I should have expected it. Dh was in hospital for three lengthy periods and got one half hour visit from one child.

Unbeknownst to one child - the one who had actually visited his dad in hospital for half an hour - we didn't get an invitation to the grandchild's 18th. I was given the impression that it was just a girls' weekend for grandchild, daughter and grandmother. Nope, the other child and his partner were there, as was the daughter's best friend.

When DH challenged his daughter about this, the response was "Oh. I didn't think you'd want to go." I'm assuming she thought him too disabled...but she didn't ask.

Before he died, he warned me that he didn't think the kids would come up for his funeral. I told him he was wrong. He was spot on.

They sent a letter for the celebrant to read out, saying how sorry they were they couldn't come. I had to get the celebrant to change it (after telling them) - they'd referred to how bravely DH had battled his various medical conditions. They got the medical conditions wrong...

In short, they succeeded in adding to the stress and heartbreak by giving me extra work.

Here endeth the rant. Basically, I'm admitting that I'm not neutral on the topic.

Also, in defence of some of the women, part of the frustrations I’ve seen on here relate to the unreliability of the the childcare that is initially freely offered (and that is backed up by the whole “I will if I feel like it” tone on here).

Common MN example, parents offer childcare, say one day a week. Mother returns to work, grandparent starts to realise this is a tiring hassle and then cancels at short notice, commits then changes mind etc. That’s going to cause no end of stress to the mother who will often wish she had just stuck the child in nursery but then has to deal with grandparents offence and snidely comments about paid childcare.

And whilst nobody should be as unkind as withholding visits of childcare is not provided, but the exhausted parents who have just done a full working week may not want to give up their precious downtime to visit wider family. In many cases it won’t be deliberate.

@WearyAuldWumman sorry they treated you like that

Thank you.

No, I was referencing an absolute multitude of bratty demanding dictator daughters making disgusting and cruel comments about older women - not just one thread.

I didn't bother to read that particular thread as it was about the 5th "older women are my resource and servants or else" thread I've seen in the last few weeks.

I just wanted to make it clear that the two situations (visiting and unpaid labour) are not comparable, the argument is illogical and the behaviour disgusting. Because it is.

This reads quite black and white, reality is usually more nuanced.

no childcare => no visits, I agree this doesn’t make strict logical sense. But often grandparents express a sense of entitlement to family visits, and days out, may have quite specific ideas of what family time should look like and how children should behave. Those expectations concrete work for the parents, and a sense that instead of helping me with the existing challenges of raising kids you’re actually adding more.

More generally, the attitude around refusing to help is similar to the general growth of individualistic every-(wo)man-for-themselves philosophies. The urge to have children can be very deep and strong. It is natural and normal. In a cost of living crisis I find it cruel to glibly say to people who long for a family but struggle with the financial side “don’t have kids if you can’t support them yourselves”. We were never meant to live these very separate nuclear family lives, and economic changes of the last couple of decades have really crippled a lot of people who have tried hard to do everything right. It makes sense in that situation that people would reach out to their families for help, and that they would feel really quite hurt by a grandparent deciding that their multiple annual holidays and 5 spare bedrooms are more important than helping the parents through the difficult early childhood years and the impossible costs of even modest family housing.

So while I take your point that it’s not good to assume this is all that grandparents are for, and I understand that everyone quite reasonably has their own hopes and plans for their own lives that might not revolve around endless childcare for extended family… I do think you’ve been a bit harsh in some of what you’ve said.

ps I live far enough away from my own parents and from in-laws that I’ll never be asking any of them for any childcare whatsoever, but expect to put in enormous amounts of time, effort and money over the years to facilitate as much relationship as possible. So none of what I’ve said is defensiveness on my side, just trying to add a bit of empathy and nuance.

Ah the old chuck some "nuanced" mud in the water and claim "empathy" because the simplicity of the truth is a bit confronting ploy.

No. No, I don't thnk we will.

Everything already asked and answered.