To suspect police are worried about vigilantes - Epsom attack

[ReadingCrimeFiction]

I live relatively close to Epsom and so this appalling assault is all over my news feeds and social media.

BBC News - Town left in shock by appalling rape outside church
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8dl5yevjg9o

The police have asked for witnesses but no descriptions have been given. Cue lots of very disturbing posts and comments from people who very clearly think these men are not white.

I can think of half a dozen scenarios where this is not being disclosed but, based on the comments, I think it all comes down to fears that local communities will take it on themselves to "apprehend" anyone who even vaguely looks like the perpetrators? And while the comments I am seeing are mostly white people being disgusting in their assumptions about brown and black people, i can imagine police would he equally concerned if, for example, the woman was Asian or Black and her attackers were white.

Is this where we are at? Where people make horrible racist assumptions and/or where police have to worry about how they will protect the broader community if they give any details of criminals?

Thanks. And @Worralorra I don’t click on random links.

An interesting article but maybe not for the reasons it was shared.

Marianna Spring is the author - that paragon of fact based objectivity (not) who reportedly lied to get her job and pops up every now and then to push trans issues and yet more misinformation into the public sphere. She writes with reliable partiality for the perpetual irony that is the BBC ‘verification unit’ (if it was written as fiction you’d think it too far fetched.)

Her very obvious views on TWAW appear to run alongside her ‘all objections around immigration are racist’ type approach

She used emotive language throughout -‘frenzy’ and ‘rage bait’ (she used that more than once - not remotely objective or impartial)

She is rather obfuscating about the actual facts around Axel Rudabukana to further her inflammatory agenda. She said:

Some seized upon the sparse details about who had committed that horrific attack, to falsely claim the perpetrator was a Muslim asylum seeker - sparking even more rage in the process.

but fails to acknowledge how close they were to the truth. His father was an asylum seeker from Rwanda and AR was found to be in possession of Islamic terror materials. I’m not sure if it has been established how AR came by his radical anti white British views.

I’m not sure if the point being made in the sharing of this article but it neatly helps underline the dishonest and accusatory stance by those who view themselves to be on The Right Side Of History and therefore Good People which isn’t going to help anybody.

How about instead of blaming people for having well founded concerns about changes being made to our country and defaulting to constant accusations of racism or being ‘far right’, those seeking to support or impose actually listen and address those concerns?

Marianna goes on to make extremely questionable and unevidenced claims that ‘rage bait posts are prioritised by some algorithms’

One popular X account, Inevitable West - which I've investigated before and appears to be based outside the UK - shared clips of the protest and claimed "ALL of Britain backs these patriots". That post reached more than half a million users - showing how rage bait posts are prioritised by some algorithims.

And then with zero self awareness she accuses local people of sharing ‘emotive speculation and mistruths’! While doing exactly the same in her article.

Without having any real facts about the case, people shared emotive speculation and mistruths playing into fears about immigration - which Surrey Police said had caused "concern" within the community.

Marianna, the police and the government are playing a significant role in the rising tensions around immigration as an issue.

What “radical anti-white British views”?

And people were not close. He was not a muslim nor was he an asylum seeker.

Inevitable West is a far right account ran by an Indian cr*pto scammer

But to the people promoting the riots the only important thing was that he was not white. Though they rarely care to say so, preferring to talk about "immigration".

I do agree with this.

“And then with zero self awareness she accuses local people of sharing ‘emotive speculation and mistruths’! While doing exactly the same in her article.” - what emotional speculation and mistruth did she share?

He had an affinity for many sorts violence and terrorism but the majority of his focus was on Islamic or race based violence and he chose to murder 3 white girls. He used al-qaeda terrorist techniques.

Marianna Spring ‘forgot’ to mention that when dismissing that particular claim. And as I said, it was his father that sought asylum from which he benefited. Close enough to reasonably expect MS to acknowledge in the interests of clarity. It’s certainly as close as him being described as a ‘Welsh choirboy’.

Police found his devices contained images from conflicts in Gaza, Ukraine, Sudan and Korea, as well as copious academic material relating to war and genocide.
His search history revealed an interest in Nazi Germany, ethnic violence in Somalia and Rwanda, and slavery.
Detectives also found an American academic study of an al-Qaeda training document, which had been downloaded at least twice since 2021.
Police say he used techniques contained in that manual when he carried out his attack.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c78w7nlwz9po?app-referrer=deep-link

Race did play a fairly key role in enabling the Southport murders, as the inquiry found.

Race also was found to have played a key part in enabling the 3 murders by Valdo Calocane and the Manchester Arena bombing.

How many murders will occur before we’re allowed to acknowledge that without you criticising?

From Hansard:

Another important revelation of this report—one that was missing from the Home Secretary’s Statement—was a similarly institutionalised practice to consider race as an important factor in agency work. Rudakubana’s head teacher, Joanne Hodson, was encouraged to water down his education, health and care plan by both his father and social services. His social worker at the time even went so far as to accuse Mrs Hodson of “racially stereotyping” Axel Rudakubana as

“a black boy with a knife”.

This is becoming a worrying trend. The same practices were made apparent in the inquiry into the tragic murders in Nottingham in 2023. Mental health care professionals had not sectioned Valdo Calocane due to the concern they placed on the “over-representation” of young Black men in detention. This mindset within institutions filters through into the public conscience. A security guard present at the Manchester Arena suicide bombing avoided confronting Salman Abedi for fear of being called a racist, despite having a “bad feeling” about the soon-to-be suicide bomber.

hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2026-04-15/debates/3D229F3B-120C-467D-BCA7-A5F840451B1E/SouthportInquiry

Read her article and see if you can spot it. It’s not hard.

@CornishDaughteroftheDawn Do you think the Southport riots would have happened without the online misinformation?

If the killer had been white?

Yes, these are important factors and sweeping them under the carpet as the BBC and the police tend to do, has just poisoned public trust.

They made this mistake in Germany after the new years eve celebrations of 2015 which police said had passed off peacefully. Turned out over 1,000 women had been sexually assaulted. And now Germany has 152 far right AFD representatives sitting in the Bundestag, which would have been unthinkable even a few years ago.

If that killer was white I doubt the police would have lied so blatantly about his identity so who knows?

The thing is, he wasn’t white, the police lied and his race was found to be a factor in multiple failures to prevent the crime. And as I said, race has been found to be a factor in failure to prevent other deadly crimes. We may find that there are more.

This is something we should be able to discuss.

A discussion is completely different than rioting in the streets, set fire to hotels, damage mosques, intimidate etnic minorities.

You cannot deny that online misiformation, lies, played a huge role. And it is doubtful that those accounts would have believed the police.

You are still going the concerned citizen route?

If that killer was white I doubt the police would have lied so blatantly about his identity so who knows?

They said he was born in the UK and not a Muslim. What part of that was a lie? It was only misleading to those who thought the most important thing about him was the colour of his skin.

I did not spot it which is why I am asking you?

Where did you read the “focus of his violence was Islamic terrorism”? Where has that been reported? He had an Al Qaeda manual but also information on the IRA.

I mean you literally debunk your own claim:

Police found his devices contained images from conflicts in Gaza, Ukraine, Sudan and Korea, as well as copious academic material relating to war and genocide.
His search history revealed an interest in Nazi Germany, ethnic violence in Somalia and Rwanda, and slavery.

What “Al-Qaeda terrorist” techniques did he use?

And how is the fact his victims happened to be white evidence of “anti-white British views”?

You seem to be inventing things to fit your narrative.

They did not lie about his identity. He is not muslim and was born in the UK (Wales).

None of that is a lie.

And his race was not a factor. Nothing has claimed otherwise. His social worker made an accusation of racism. That’s it.

Yes.
Lots of people are fascinated by such things but doesn't mean they espouse them.
As a teenager I had a copy of 'Guerilla Warfare' by Che Guevera (bought after watching the film, 'Che'). I am a pacifist but I found him fascinating. I know how to make a Molotov cocktail but never had any intention of doing so.
Boys are known to like violent films and video games.

The Southport killer was not a Muslim, he was a very disturbed young chap. His religious affiliation and ethnicity was hardly relevant.

The communication was simply that he was born in Cardiff (intended to counter misinformation that he was a recently-arrived asylum seeker), they did not divulge his faith or family background.

Where I have seen the police criticized is for being too slow to divulge that information in order to confirm he was not a Muslim, leaving enough of an information vacuum that it left enough space for agitators to spread anti-Muslim rhetoric.

And some of those folks now seem to the think they were right because, although the claims being spread were or a recent asylum seeker and/or Muslim, what they actually meant was "not white".

I find the criticism of tbe police very problematic, though. Authorities have to show some degree of care in what is publicly released, because the last thing anyone should want is for a trial to be inadvertently prejudiced.

Unfortunately, I guess we now have to balance justice and proper procedure with the threat of violent right wing mobs assembling, if it can't be quickly proven to their satisfaction that either a crime didn't occur, or that the perpetrator was white.

Why are you trying to pretend I said something I haven’t actually said?

I said “He had an affinity for many sorts violence and terrorism but the majority of his focus was on Islamic or race based violence”

I can’t have a discussion if you are going to be that dishonest.

What “Al-Qaeda terrorist” techniques did he use?

How am I supposed to know? It’s in the BBC report.

And how is the fact his victims happened to be white evidence of “anti-white British views”?

Maybe try reading the post and the article again, it’s quite clear.

I don’t think it’s the police, the issue is for politicians. Police are just caught in a straining system and having to deal with it.

Politically it’s similar in many countries seeing the same pressures.

The communication was simply that he was born in Cardiff

And some of those folks now seem to the think they were right because, although the claims being spread were or a recent asylum seeker and/or Muslim, what they actually meant was "not white".

You seem to be rewriting history. He was widely described as a ‘Welsh choirboy’. Which deliberately conjures up a very different image than the son of Rwandan parents who sought asylum here after the genocide in Rwanda who sought and used al-Qaeda terror manuals to commit his crimes.

There have been a number of other crimes where a full or accurate description of the suspect or known perpetrator has not been reported - this seems to happen more frequently in cases where a man is calling himself a woman or where the perpetrator is not of British origin.

This has understandably caused public concern and as a result the police guidance on this was recently updated. Reporting seems to have improved somewhat but it makes the actual number of crimes committed by asylum seekers or more recent immigrants more visible.

From the BBC report:
It comes after authorities were accused of hiding the identities of two men, reported to be Afghan asylum seekers, charged over the alleged rape of a 12-year-old in Warwickshire.
Police have been encouraged to consider disclosing the ethnicity and nationality of suspects charged in high-profile cases, after facing mounting pressure over the details they make public.
The interim guidance from the National Police Chiefs' Council (NPCC) aims to reduce the risk to public safety where there are high levels of misinformation about an incident.

They are calling it public misinformation but it is more like the public reaction to knowing we are being deliberately misled by the authorities and media. That is on them.

I find the criticism of the police very problematic, though. Authorities have to show some degree of care in what is publicly released, because the last thing anyone should want is for a trial to be inadvertently prejudiced.

Why would releasing a full description of the suspect prejudice a trial? The police released the nationality and skin colour of Paul Doyle VERY quickly.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5ypgg28nvpo?app-referrer=deep-link

https://spectator.com/article/dont-fear-the-bogeyman/

The public inquiry disagrees with you. His parents are Tutsi’s. Tutsi’s were on the receiving end of a genocide. ARs parents escaped but the understandable and profound trauma will live with them forever. There is a very strong chance that affected their ability to deal with their sons behaviour.

Sir Adrian said if his parents had done "what they morally ought to have" and reported his suspicious behaviour, he would not have been free on the day of the attack.

A reminder of what happened in Rwanda:

In just 100 days in 1994, about 800,000 people were slaughtered in Rwanda by ethnic Hutu extremists. They were targeting members of the minority Tutsi community, as well as their political opponents, irrespective of their ethnic origin.

The Southport killer was not a Muslim,

I didn’t say he was. The police deliberately withheld the information that he was not a Muslim. He used al-qaeda material to carry out an Islamic style terror attack. So in the absence of alternative information I think it’s a fair assumption that he was a Muslim as 76% -94% of UK terror attacks have been by Muslims.

From the BBC:

Kennedy told MPs that, despite violent disorder spreading to other parts of the UK, she was told not to release information about Rudakubana to journalists.
She said she had wanted to tell the media that Rudakubana was not a Muslim.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2rgyeqv1yo?app-referrer=deep-link

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-26875506?app-referrer=deep-link

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8d491mqqq5o?app-referrer=deep-link

And his race was not a factor. Nothing has claimed otherwise. His social worker made an accusation of racism. That’s it.

”His social worker made an accusation of racism” is doing some rather heavy lifting there.

Even the government has acknowledged that his race was an issue (see Shabana Mahmoods response to Chris Philp in the link) so I’m not sure why you are so convinced it wasn’t.

From Hansard.

Chris Philp.
During the inquiry, we heard evidence given by Rudakubana’s former headteacher Joanne Hodson. She told the inquiry that she was pressured by mental health services to water down the education, health and care plan to minimise the danger posed by Rudakubana because of his ethnicity. Miss Hodson told the inquiry:
^^
“my efforts to include this information in the EHCP were met with hostility by the father and also by mental health services. Miss Steed”,
^^
who was from child and adolescent mental health services,
^^
“even went as far as to accuse me of racially stereotyping AR as ‘a black boy with a knife’. Nothing could be further from the truth”,
^^
but
^^
“in the end…the wording of the EHCP was re-written in many places”.
^^
This contributed to the clear risks being missed.
^^
The Nottingham inquiry into the three tragic murders there identified exactly the same issue: mental health professionals in Nottingham decided not to section Valdo Calocane because they were concerned about an
^^
“over-representation of young black men in detention”.
^^
Even the Government’s notes on the Mental Health Bill accompanying the King’s Speech refer to that issue.

hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2026-04-13/debates/673CC7C2-B6F0-42AF-9258-D008767C77A4/SouthportInquiry

The parents should be charged too, it’ll give other sleeper radicalised young men something to consider before they do something awful.