To find middle class parents insufferable?

[Gwst]

Sorry rant incoming! I'm so sick of how since becoming a parent half the people I speak to seem to be insufferable snobs about the area we live in (in a big city). Schools are "terrible" despite good ratings, couldn't possibly be good enough for their children, and are upset they don't live in a posher area, too many undesirables round where we live, complaining about drugs etc when this is an issue that 100% doesn't affect their demographic. I've recently had someone say they had to move to the suburbs because at their local school all the parents had "a can of coke in one hand, a fag in the other and 10 kids" and another saying a nursery wasn't good enough as they didn't want their child looked after by someone with a speech impediment. Both of these left me with my jaw on the floor shocked someone would think it's OK to say that but they seem to have no embarrassment about saying it to me, a casual acquaintance. And the area we live in is full of creative types, ostensibly left wing etc but also seem to hold these reactionary views when it comes to their kids.

The thing about schools drives me mad as I guarantee most of these people have zero experience of attending or their kids attending a challenging city comprehensive. It's just this perceived bias that their kids will get bullied or become drug dealers or other crap that they heard from their parents as to why they went to private school and are now parroting but can't afford private school or a posh area themselves. I went to a pretty crap school but I came out with good grades and went to a prestigious uni. It wasn't all great but it was a realistic cross section of society and arguably gives you good expectations of the real world and that fact that not everyone in your community is privileged etc. But no one seems to care about that and just wants to look out for themselves and everyone else be damned.

I am middle class myself lol. And my kid is going to have plenty of (unfair) social advantages anyway without us having to get them into "the best" school or only socialise with other middle class people. I just really don't get it. Am I alone in thinking like this??

Er.. this?

I live in a suburb of Harrow where most schools are rated Good or Outstanding. Over time, many White British families have gradually moved elsewhere. The area has become largely South Asian, particularly Indian and Sri Lankan families, with a strong, shared emphasis on education, regardless of parents’ jobs or background.

People can interpret this as prejudice. Perhaps the reality is more nuanced.
DP is Franco-German. In Germany, there isn’t the same culture of highly exclusive schools or universities. And in France, good teachers tend to stay in the state system because the conditions are good. The children grow up mixing across a wider range of social backgrounds. The result is a society with a less pronounced class divide.

I agree it's not just about exam grades - and my DC exam grades were good in the end despite dire school.

I do feel the extra the atmpsohere, the lack of ambition for our kids, lack or wider oppotunties there were at the school let them down most.

However when the exam results are as dire as they got at DC school - it did become important because so many found post 16 pathways blocked because they hadn't got the minuium.

I also say it harder or take more self motivation to get the good results when class are constantly disrupted and teachers aren't there or have reach point of crowd control. It's hard to quantifiy for each school or pupil but in many case those kids are working hard or are naturally better to get those "less excelling" grades - it's why some uni offer the lower entry becuase statsically those kids tend to do much better in degrees than stduents from schools with better results and fewer obstacles to overcome.

It's an acknowlegment by some univeristies that the secondary playing field isn't fair and some kids work harder but it doesn't get reflected in results not a they don't have to be as good as that poster you were replying to did seem to be implying.

It would be interesting to see developments in German education now that their industry is being rapidly destroyed. Before, the country needed masses of skilled workforce so even their Realschule were much much better than British schools. It remains to be seen how they are going to fund excellent free education for the masses when there won't be much for the blue collar to do...
They also have a completely different attitude to discipline, of course.

It's just disingenious posters- ignore. I wouldn't rule out state school- would actually prefer it to private. Sadly our local state school is not a good fit for my ds- his mh would take a toll. It started late primary with behaviours from some boys who then went on to the local secondary. In private they would get kicked out immediately for this but the bar for inacceptable behaviour is sadly very different btw our private and state school. Luckily It's a private catholic secondary that is not expensive so get a good mix- ds best friend is muslim- his mum put him there for the same reasons I did: avoid thugs and embrace academic skills.

But you are doing the same ? Do you really think people wanting better and more is wrong ?

I completely agree with you. I've had very similar experiences. Even had one of them tell me there were too many kids of colour in the primary school nearby. My kids are 18 and 15 now though and iver time I just started to challenge all this snobby crap and let them feel uncomfortable because it cimes form a very selfish and self centred place. Ultimately, all the schools bullshit is really about social circles not education and half of them end up with burny out kids they've pushed too hard and aren't happy with the academic funneling.
We're raising kids to function in society and to me, this means having a more ethical approach to child raising and inclusion, not just obsessing over status.

My OH went to a terrible school in South London, that's still joked about 20 years ago as it was so bad. He has NEVER said any of those things. It's snobbery and internalised classicism that drives it.

I know what you are saying.

Here in Ireland, you are free to apply to any school, it’s not catchment dependent (although they take from catchment first). So despite areas being very mixed socioeconomically now due to the housing crisis, and many primary school being mixed, you find that better educated parents will put their children in secondary schools in better areas. Which creates a divide, mostly in Dublin.

So on a population level, I think this is bad and that we should aim for socially mixed schools and discourage private schooling. When it came down to looking for my own kids, I sent them outside the area.

Yes, of course there are judgemental snobs in the world who look down others’ choice of schools for a variety of reasons; and people who want the safety blanket of familiarity, so choose something similar to their own experience, because they understand that better and feel safer with it; and people who are so scarred by their own experiences that they don’t want even the slightest reminder of it in their child’s school; and people who follow the strident opinions of friends and acquaintances whose children have never even darkened the doors of the schools they are rubbishing, again through fear and ignorance of the reality, or wanting to fit in with their friendship group; and people who listen to vindictiveness on social media and let that sway their decisions. Human beings are not perfect, and nor are schools - any schools.

We are all different from each other and interact differently with our environment. The “middle classes” are not more prone to this than “the rest of society” - you can’t possibly have a middle class without a class system, and can’t possibly have a class system without separation between the classes. To constantly blame the “middle classes” for this, as though they invented the entire class system and are the only ones desperately trying to maintain it and the only ones being deeply judgemental is a load of absolute bollocks. If you don’t want or like a class system, then stop perpetuating it by constantly invoking it as the reason for people’s petty mindedness, fears and anxieties.

Im middle class. And a snob (sometimes) but I keep it quiet. I went to look round the large Catholic comp a tram ride from my house and made mental note to pay for education rather than send ds there if he didn't make grammar. Wouldn't touch the failing comps nearer to home. Have said warm And encouraging things to friends whose dc go to said schools though I'm pretty sure my views are clear as I choose to send dc to Catholic grammar a bus ride away.

The trick is to not be a dick.

I'm currently on holiday in a 5 star hotel abroad. Cant stand a camping holiday in Wales. Wouldn't touch cheap AI but don't say that to my mates who go to these places.

I drive a BMW but don't sneer at my friends very nice skoda octavia. Horses for courses.

That said I'm a bit fed up of the middle class dads on this holiday but that's because lots of young parents here and they are all a bit meh.

You’re not much of a snob if you’re friends with people who send their children to the failing comps and who go on camping holidays in Wales. Must try harder. 🤣

OP you’re just enjoying bashing the middle classes. Everyone should be looking out for their children it’s part and parcel of being a parent.
Most people want good teachers, an environment where their children can learn and decent facilities so I don’t think it’s about ‘mixing with the wrong sort’.
I myself was ‘educated’ at a failing measures lowest 10% comp so I can tell you most of my fellow pupils were and are great but most of my teachers and the absolute lack of ability to learn in the classroom were not.
At parent’s evening most parents turned up, listened respectfully and cared but I don’t think that is happening anymore across the spectrum of socioeconomic classes.
Regardless of how rich people are there are engaged caring parents, angry abusive ones and everything in between.
If you don’t like the conversations start another one; no-one is going to start a lengthy involved conversation at the school gates but that doesn’t mean they aren’t nice or interesting people.
I also believe you should not castigate parents for choosing a private school. Firstly it saves the state money, secondly increasingly many of these children have SEN needs unmet by the state and thirdly if the state school is not providing a decent standard of education and a safe environment then I can not think of a better way to spend hard earned cash.
I think the worst snobbery is from those who have children attending a very good comprehensive who sneer at parents who don’t have that luxury and have to scrape together the funds to go private.

But are you really middle-class if you can't use apostrophes? Im middle class.
In my head, what you wrote sounds like "In middle class."

See, that's the trouble with being a snob, as you say you are sometimes. There's always someone snobbing back at you!

Maybe snobbing at each other keeps us Brits going...

🤪

@ZenNudist You and I sound similar, although you have a nicer car.

There were a few local schools that I thought I would never send my DC there. I kept it to myself and sought other avenues. I don't slag off the school. I know people who have DC at these schools, they all seem ok
I will also say that I have been deeply unimpressed by some local private schools. For £8k per term I would be expecting more rigour and ambition.

There are areas where there is only one school for a big catchment. Google Tavistock in west Devon, or Exmouth. Tavistock is big. 10 form entry so 200-300 pupils each year cohort. Exmouth used to be the biggest secondary school in Europe. I did some of my ITT there.

And in that situation, assuming it’s not a dreadful school, I imagine most people send their kids there without a second thought.

Near me, there is one school in special measures with terrible results and no co-curriculars, and two which are outstanding with excellent GCSE and A level results, loads of sports and music opportunities. Overlapping catchments. Why would anyone choose to send their kids to the shit school if they have a choice?

Dah-ling, a real snob would not concoct such atrocities to the English language as "snobbing", and would certainly not respond with emojis! A true snob would definitely not use contractions (even with apostrophes) when communicating with an unknown person.

I feel you are unworthy of true-snob status.

I have always abhorred snobbiness and we couldn’t have afforded private school without putting ourselves under a lot of pressure. No grammars in our area and we made sure we lived in the catchment for what at the time was an Outstanding school (just went down to “Good.”)

The thing I hadn’t reckoned with was lack
of aspiration of others. I went to comp and got top grades in my GCSEs. It is hard to be the clever one and I knew that. Kiddo has lovely girls as friends but all they do is hang round town and certainly have no ambition to do well and get good jobs. She has more or less stopped reading books.
Keeping some perspective for her beyond living here (there are few jobs) is something I’m very keen to do. Happily she wants to go to university and live in London when older and I really hope she hangs on to that. Seriously considering private sixth form.m

Bashing the middle class is a safe target. No death threats or revenge strategies or rioting will ensue. No constant marching on behalf of the bullied middle classses being taken fior granted and routinely vilified.
Inverted snobbery is just as tedious as straight snobbishness.

Life isn't fair. Stop walking around with some mad sense of guilt you're trying to palm off to others. It's entirely reasonable to try to do better for ones self and kids.

Lol a person with a title and family wealth is not middle class. They’re usually upper class or an aristocrat (at least someone with a title is) I’m sure they’d be either horrified or delighted at being called middle class depending on how they view their own poshness, but they definitely wouldn’t think it was accurate! Middle class is detached home in nice area or cottage in the countryside, no strong regional accent, calling a toilet a loo, calling dinner supper, maybe sending their kids to private school (not boarding though), maybe being into horses

What is wrong with wanting the best you can possibly do for your children?

What's wrong with a regional accent?

LOL that's an interesting depiction of MC! 😁