AIBU to refuse unsupervised contact after MIL shouted at and smacked child?

[Mrstiptop]

A couple of months ago we were at my MIL’s and while we were in another room, we heard her REALLY shout at our DD7 for accidentally closing a box on her brothers hand (he didn’t cry). DD was beside herself at how Nanny had shouted, so we left quite quickly and I promised my DD that she would never have to go again if she didn’t feel safe. MIL rang the next day, and asked to apologise to her, which she did and all was left.

A month or so later, she asked to have both children for a sleepover, we agreed. When I collected them the next morning, DD told me Nanny hit DS5 during a board game because DD was cheating, DS was furious about the cheating, and was shouting and screaming at his sister to stop. He’s very justice sensitive and hates cheating! MIL apparently shouted “shut up” in his face, then smacked him. I told DH, and he rang her to ask what happened. She said “it was just a tap” and didn’t think she’d done anything wrong. But it was enough that it was the first thing they told me on pick up. She didn’t apologise this time.

I’ve said I don’t feel comfortable with her looking after my children again. She can still see the kids, but always with one of us present. DH keeps pushing me to let me have them in the school holidays, as “she’s not a bad person”. We’ve never touched our children, and would never smack them and family know this.

AIBU to refuse to let her have the children unsupervised?

I think you're absolutely right to be furious and for this to be a hard line.

You say she doesn't understand and doesn't think she has done anything wrong. Does your DH? Has he sat down with her to explain that smacking is something you both consider to be an absolute hard line (and, depending where you live, possibly illegal?). IME it is a bit like drink driving - there are still people in her generation who did not grow up with the clear message that it was wrong, dangerous and socially unacceptable, and who therefore genuinely still believe it's all a matter of personal judgement and nothing much to worry about.

(My older brother had to do a lot of work with our parents on both of these subjects, which is why the comparison came to mind for me.)

YANBU - my DC have never been left alone with their GP's for exactly this reason. Yes, it would have been practical during the school holidays when they were younger, but you just have to deal with the inconvenience and find other childcare.

I think you need to have a talk with your DH about how many times he was hit as a child. When you re brought up being hit you don't always understand how bd it is / was.

I'd be straight round to give her a "tap". Vile bully

YANBU. You are protecting your children.

Your dh on the other hand sounds like a wet lettuce 🥬

you need to make the decision yourself, dont cut off your nose to spite your face.
perhaps speak to her

Of course you're not being unreasonable. She must never see them unsupervised again. Awful woman, and if she's that bad a grandma, how bad must she have been as a mum?

She doesn't have the tools to deal with fairly normal behaviour from young children, so I wouldn't leave her in charge. She can see them with you as a family when you can parent them of anything happens. Tbh the fact she screamed at your DD when you were in the house, plus the smacking, would make me on edge even to let the DC go off to another room when I was present in the house. I certainly wouldn't be leaving them with her alone.

I mean your MIL can't be enjoying looking after your DC if that's how she's reacting to any conflict with them. Your instincts are right here.

My Mil (80) used to give dh a tap on the butt for misbehaving. This was very normal then. I told her that I was absolutely against this and if she wanted to have my children over she wasn't ever to lay a hand on them. It's lazy parenting only fulfilling the need of an adult venting frustration. The child only learns that when you are big you can hurt someone smaller so how do we teach that child not to hit smaller children?

She understood my reasoning and has never laid a hand on my kids. They love her very much and still want to see her now when they are teens. I just think it's better to have a discussion like this before anything happens and no boundaries are crossed.

In your case @Mrstiptop I would not let Mil have the children on her own.

Please confront her about this. Message her and ask why she thinks it’s acceptable to hit anyone let alone her grandchild. I would be concerned about supervised access tbh as she shouted aggressively at your daughter when you were in the same house. Actions have consequences and I say absolutely no contact until she apologizes and even then it’s only supervised by you. But please do put this in writing to her re the two incidents you know about.
personally I’d be round there and giving her a tap. I’m not violent but someone physically or emotionally harms my kids and animal instincts emerge.. I’m furious for you. And your husband is a dick of a father thinking it’s ok.

Have you asked what was the ‘tap’? one on back of hand or
repeated slaps to the behind?
Id be clarifying what she thinks a tap is.
On another note your 5 yr old shouldn’t be screaming and shouting at his sister either.

Your DH’s attitude is awful.

No way would I leave my kids with anyone who hits them. Where did she hit him btw?

Your DH is conflict avoidant, is that just with his mum or does it affect his everyday life?
Your MIL shouts and hits out when she gets overwhelmed so I’m not surprised he avoids conflict because he has been taught from an early age not to anger or to annoy her as he will get hurt.
You are bringing up your DC that their feelings matter and to help them make good choices. That anger can be voiced constructively without resorting to violence.
Your MIL shouting and hitting small children is violence! I would die on that hill as she was told shouting made your children feel unsafe with her and now she has assaulted your five year old.

I live in Scotland where any type of smacking is illegal. So I’d be reporting her to the police.

id never let her see the children unaccompanied again. And id probably go pretty ballistic at her for hitting my child. Just thinking about it gives me the rage.

It certainly is illegal in England apart from in very specific circumstances. This doesn’t qualify for the reasonable chastisement exemption.
it isn’t the case that in England all and sundry are allowed to go round smacking children.

YOU not your DH need to explain to your MIL that she knew after shouting at your DD that it was unacceptable and now she has resorted to violence. That your DC will need parental supervision if and when they visit and absolutely no sleepovers. Any arguments from her and just tell her actions have consequences like a broken record.

Probably unpopular opinion ahead.

I think it is unreasonable to label MIL as a bad person on the basis of these two incidents and I think reporting her to the police, as some have suggested, would be ridiculous. It is not that simple. I agree that hitting children is wrong and I would never do it, but when MIL was bringing up her children it was fairly standard practice and no-one thought much about it. Thankfully times and attitudes have changed.

Unfortunately it seems that MIL has not changed her old habits, and probably acts automatically. She is wrong but I don’t believe it necessarily makes her a bad person. It's not as if she was beating DC in cold blood.

OP: have you and your DH actually had a serious conversation, together, with MIL and told her that parenting and the law have changed, you do not want her to ever smack your children and she absolutely must not do it again?

@skiprun
The police? if it’s been a tap to
the hand, do you envisage an assault prosecution?
Some matters can be dealt with without the police!
Theres been no clarification as to what happened.

No way would mine spend any time with her without me being present. I wouldn’t trust DH either as he doesn’t seem to be taking it very seriously. Literally would not be allowed in the same room without me as clearly she’s happy to smack and shout with you in the house.

i would be very clear to your DH the fact she gets to see them at all is your compromise for his sake. You would not be unreasonable to stop all contact.

Why are you giving her any access to your children? If you feel you need to supervise your children around a family member your children shouldn’t be near them.

MIL is lucky she’s in England, we’re in Wales where it’s illegal and if it was my DC she’d done it to I’d be pressing charges.

I’d never let my own parents look after my children again if they did that, let alone some short tempered fucker who happens to be related by law.
Your MIL can learn her lesson and no longer have unsupervised access, that’s what happens when you shout at and smack other people’s children?! The fuck?! Does she think she has a right to hit them because they’re her son’s children?

My mil smacked my then 8yo DS during contact with ex partner and we were going through the family courts at the time. CAFCASS actually recommended supervised contact only.
from recollection, basically in England parents can smack but other people can’t unless they’ve been given permission to do so by the parents, so the fact that she did it without the parents permission I think does mean it’s an assault and against the law.

I don’t suppose OP would do it anyway but I don’t think the police and social services would not be interested in this one, the only reason we had a social worker involved was because they were anyway and it was part of a larger issue of my ex being very shit. If the child had a mark on them or something like that, that might be different. If the child was repeatedly smacked and OP did nothing then yes, she might be questioned by social services

my feeling at the time was that it’s my job to protect my children and putting them with somebody who is intimidating and angry like this Will not do them any good, it would damage the relationships all round. Aside from obviously wanting to punch the bitch in the face for hurting my kid and caring about his welfare as paramount I also reasoned that Kids will have a better relationship with their grandmother if it is supervised and cordial than if it’s unsupervised and frightening from time to time. So actually you’re helping everyone by not putting her in this position. If you’re able to have an adult conversation with her, that’s a bit different but it doesn’t sound like it.

and as an aside I was reflecting on my son being hit recently and wondering if I overreacted at the time in asking my ex to talk to me about it. I’m so heartened by the replies on this thread. My DS has no interest in a relationship with her, it was clear from previous behaviour that she had a temper and was prone to childish Angry outbursts. such an unnecessary situation that my ex could have foreseen but wouldn’t do anything as he was worried about upsetting her

It's pointless reporting her to the police because, assuming they're in England, it's not illegal even though it should be.

And whether she is a Bad Person is beside the point, really. The point is, she hits and screams at children, can't handle normal behaviour for the age and people who can't control themselves around children or stop themselves hitting and screaming like children themselves only really go in one direction. Never mind whether she's a Bad Person, she's irresponsible, unsafe and for the children's sake she must never have them unaccompanied. The rest of the stuff is all about her and the adults and it doesn't matter. Don't leave her in a position where she's in charge of kids she can't handle.