AIBU to refuse unsupervised contact after MIL shouted at and smacked child?

[Mrstiptop]

A couple of months ago we were at my MIL’s and while we were in another room, we heard her REALLY shout at our DD7 for accidentally closing a box on her brothers hand (he didn’t cry). DD was beside herself at how Nanny had shouted, so we left quite quickly and I promised my DD that she would never have to go again if she didn’t feel safe. MIL rang the next day, and asked to apologise to her, which she did and all was left.

A month or so later, she asked to have both children for a sleepover, we agreed. When I collected them the next morning, DD told me Nanny hit DS5 during a board game because DD was cheating, DS was furious about the cheating, and was shouting and screaming at his sister to stop. He’s very justice sensitive and hates cheating! MIL apparently shouted “shut up” in his face, then smacked him. I told DH, and he rang her to ask what happened. She said “it was just a tap” and didn’t think she’d done anything wrong. But it was enough that it was the first thing they told me on pick up. She didn’t apologise this time.

I’ve said I don’t feel comfortable with her looking after my children again. She can still see the kids, but always with one of us present. DH keeps pushing me to let me have them in the school holidays, as “she’s not a bad person”. We’ve never touched our children, and would never smack them and family know this.

AIBU to refuse to let her have the children unsupervised?

I loathe the "just a tap" comment to attempt to justify smacking. Your MIL seems not to be able to cope with what are very normal squabbles and incidents involving young children. I also would not be letting her have them on her own for a good long while.

I would also be concerned with your DH's reaction. He should be totally on board with the whole no smacking concept and be backing you up and being clear with his mother about it. No one is saying she's a "bad person" - that's a very simplistic response. You are saying that she isn't capable of managing the children in a way that you are happy with, and doesn't seem to recognise that this is an issue. So, on that basis, she won't be looking after them on her own, for now.

Have you had the opportunity to demonstrate nonviolent discipline methods in MIL's presence?

Growing up in the 70s and 80s, being yelled at and hit was "normal" for me but happily we learned better methods, and used the "time out" - sitting on the stairs, nothing to do, for the number of minutes equal to the child's age). I remember at a family gathering overhearing my dad explain it to his younger brother and commenting on how impressed he was about how effective it was to teach a child correct behaviour without making them afraid.

Yanbu to protect your children from any adult who believes that violence is the way to obtain obedience but saying "never again" closes off the possibility of her learning a better way. Can you help her to learn?

The op said her child was smacked. Smacking is illegal in Scotland so if it happened here too right I’d be calling the police.
even if they go have a word with her to put the shits up her. Nobody hits my
child, no matter a ‘tap on the hand’ nobody

It is totally obvious when someone has lost their shit, lost sight of the child, lost any sense of proportion or any goal of education and correction and is just out to dominate.

In that situation I hold the opinion that verbal abuse is just as damaging as smacking.
As your MIL appears to fall into that category I would probably do the same as you.

If the tellings off had been dispassionate or there had been some immediate need for a slap on the hand (struggling to think what, reaching for hot tea?) I might feel differently.

Why do people keep repeating their own misinterpretation of the law as though it’s fact? It is illegal in England, and the police can take exactly the same action they would in Wales or Scotland. The ‘reasonable chastisement’ defence is limited in scope and doesn’t apply here. People in England are not simply allowed to smack children if they are not their parents, and in many cases, even if they are their parents.

She hit a child and she thinks that was ok. No way would she be left alone with my chilren. I'd also be very concerned if my DH disagreed with that.
She's had her chance already and her behaviour towards the children has escalated. Supervised only is the way to go. Although I'd struggle being civil to someone who repeatedly shouted at my children.

YADNBU but YABU to allow her to set eyes on your kids again, even supervised! Hell would freeze over before she saw my children again…

I stopped contact completely over a similar situation with my mum several years back.

Hitting your kids has been an absolute no for many years now, so there’s no excuse.

What I find heartbreaking here is that your DC know her behaviour is wrong and are telling you. Imagine the anxiety they will feel being sent to stay, unprotected, with someone who verbally and physically abuses them.

The power imbalance is massive here. She’s 4 times their size.

Absolutely no. Also, if your DC go to school with a mark on them it’s your door step social services will be turning up on, not hers.

I think for me the issue is that she doesn't believe she did anything wrong and hasn't apologised. She did apologise the first time around so why doesn't she think the escalation in her behaviour was ok?

Truthfully she isn't able to care for your children.

If it were my children, I wouldn't allow any unsupervised contact and certainly no sleepovers. I recall being shouted at and smacked as a child and it is a very clear and formative memory. It is likely that your children will not want to be around her anymore.

It's not uncommon for the older generations to not see anything wrong in smacking a child. It's something they would have experienced themselves. Did your MIL smack your husband as a child? I suspect the answer will be yes. Did your MIL have a quick temper, when you husband was a child?

Do you think your MIL could possibly find having two young children in the house hard work? Yes, she's brought up your husband (possibly siblings too) but this is a long time ago. Patience, can wear thin as we become older. Of course, it doesn't excuse her behaviour at all, and she shouldn't be smacking or shouting at her grandchildren.

Personally, I'm with you on your stance that your MIL has supervised access only to your children. If she is short tempered, finds the children hard work, has less patience etc, then that's a recipe for the same situation happening again.

I appreciate your husband wants his Mum to have a relationship with her grandchildren, but that's not going to happen if she's allowed unsupervised access. Eventually, your children won't want to see her/visit or stay, if she behaves in this way in the future. Supervised access means, your children are protected and your MIL still has a relationship with them.

@Sassylovesbooks spot on. great advice.

Literal abuse. No way would I let her look after my kids

Agree with this.

I do think though that from her behaviour it seems like she has quite a short fuse with the children so I would definitely limit time spent alone with her. She doesn't need that, she can see the children with a parent present, and if she questions it then you can explain why.

@Sassylovesbooks is completely right. I would say this but I would also point out to your husband the earlier point that "your DC know her behaviour is wrong and are telling you. Imagine the anxiety they will feel being sent to stay, unprotected, with someone who verbally and physically abuses them."

He might not consider it abuse, but that's what it is and he is willingly allowing the situation to escalate. Far simpler to take steps where your children are collected and brought home for the night before tempers run thin.

I would also be sitting down with your MIL and being quite explicit that it is not acceptable to hit your children or shout in their face. Share what you do at home to manage poor behaviour. Consistency is key here if they understand that consequences from Granny's will follow them home in the form of cancelled privileges.

If she thinks a tap is acceptable for cheating at a game at 5 what would she hand out for a real 'crime'?
They can have a relationship with her without it being unsupervised.. And tell her why. She isn't being able to assault your dc again.
If she likes she can have her dc back home and tap him all she wants.. See how he likes it then.

Depends where you are. Its legal in England.

No it isn't legal to assault children you do not have PR for in England. And it is a grey area at that, if a parent leaves a mark it is illegal. Even if they do not leave a mark, whilst they will not go to prison they may lose contact with the child in order to keep them safe.

I was answering another posters question and it is indeed correct that it is legal to smack your children in England. You cannot use anything but an open hand and cannot leave a mark. She did not ask if it was legal to smack others children.

Children are not taken from their parents because they smacked them unless the child came to harm or it is a pattern of abusive behaviour. Get your facts right.

We aren't talking about someone with PR here, we are talking about a grand parent. My facts are all in order, parents often lose unsupervised contact in these circumstances, for example if parents are separated.

How old is this MIL if the grandchildren are 7 and 5? My DGC are similar ages and it certainly wasn't the norm when my DC were young to be smacking and shouting as some on here seem to be suggesting. Even my parents never smacked and I am 70, although my dad certainly did his share of shouting!

She should consider herself lucky she's getting to see them at all.

An incident that scared your DD enough that you left immediately, followed a month later by your MIL actually smacking your DS in the face and shouting "shut up" - and this time no apology, just "it was just a tap" - you are not being unreasonable in the slightest, and honestly, you've already been more patient with this than most would be.

The bit that stands out most is the shift between the two incidents. First time, she rang the next day, apologised properly to your DD, seemed to understand it was wrong. Second time, she smacked your five year old in the face and doesn't think she's done anything wrong. That's not a one-off slip from someone mortified at their own behaviour, that's someone who's shown you exactly what she thinks is acceptable when she's alone with your children and doesn't believe she'll be challenged on it.

A few things worth being firm about:
"It was just a tap" is exactly the kind of minimising that should worry you more, not less
It tells you she doesn't see smacking a child in the face as a real problem, which means there's no reason to believe it won't happen again given the chance. People who feel remorse change their behaviour; people who explain it away don't.

She has shown you who she is, more than once now - this isn't a one-off to be explained away
Shouting and frightening DD, then shouting in DS's face and smacking him, with zero remorse the second time round. The pattern is escalating, not settling down. Nobody should have to wait around to find out what "next time" looks like - a harder smack, a punch, who knows - to justify acting now. Two incidents is more than enough evidence of what she does when she thinks no one's watching or that there won't be consequences.
The fact your children told you straight away, unprompted, matters. Kids don't usually lead with something like that unless it genuinely upset or frightened them. That's your children telling you, in their own way, that something happened that felt wrong to them.
You and DH have never smacked your children, and family know that. That's precisely why your children have no context for being hit and were rattled enough to report it immediately.

No contact at all is the only sensible response here, and it needs shutting down right now, not eased into gradually. She's had two chances - a shouting incident with an apology, then an actual smack in the face with no remorse. There's no version of "let's see how it goes" that makes sense after this. Choosing "never again, full stop" isn't an overreaction, it's you deciding your children's safety isn't up for negotiation with anyone, regardless of who they are or how DH feels about it.

On DH's line that "she's not a bad person" - honestly, that doesn't wash here. She struck a vulnerable five-year-old, in her charge, in the face. If a childminder, teacher, or stranger had done that to your DS, the police would be involved without a second thought. What she did was bad, full stop, and she's shown you that once wasn't a fluke.

She cannot be trusted, and you don't need to wait for a worse "next time" to know that. These needs shutting down now - no contact, no negotiation, no second-guessing yourself. That's exactly what a parent should do.