to resent pressure on grandmothers to provide childcare?

[ReluctantGM]

I feel like there’s a real pressure placed on grandmothers that just isn’t there for grandfathers.

I work and I want to keep working. Partly because I need the income, but also because it gives me structure and some space. But because I’m the grandmother, there’s a clear pressure on me to step in and provide regular childcare so my daughter and daughter-in-law can return to work. I’m often told I could be spending more time with the grandchildren and building a bond with them.

I do understand that childcare is expensive and that life is more expensive these days. I’m not dismissing that at all. But I’ve said more than once that I can’t do it. I don’t have the energy or capacity for it, and I don’t want to take on that level of responsibility.

My DD and DS keep bringing it up and have even suggested that I go part time or rearrange my hours to make it work. It feels like pressure rather than a genuine choice.

I was exhausted by parenting the first time round. My DS had mental health problems and needed a lot of care and support well into his early twenties. I gave everything to that stage of my life. Yes I love my grandchildren, but that doesn’t mean I want to be responsible for them day to day.

I also find it really hard to tolerate crying babies and young children now and I don’t want to keep getting ill from all the bugs they inevitably bring home.

Yesterday I was out shopping and saw a toddler having a full tantrum and felt relieved that I don’t have to deal with that anymore. I walked away to get away from the noise.

What I find particularly frustrating is that there is absolutely no expectation on my husband. No one is asking him to change his work or take this on. It’s just assumed I should be the one to step in.

I’ve spoken to other friends and they feel the same pressure. Their husbands get no pressure and there are no expectations of them to adjust their work hours or give up work to look after children.

Why do adult children/DIL/SIL feel they can pressure grandmothers into providing childcare, while grandfathers are left alone or not even asked, especially if they’re working?

We have put our foot down and flat out said no.

My husband and I have been enjoying our day together, really connecting and having fun. We've done our parenting and still have busy lives. But our weekly date day is sacred snd I'm not prepared to sacrifice that.

Weve said when DGC sleeps through we may do sleepovers when it suits us but not by demand or as a weekly thing. And in school holidays when I have more free time and they are old enough to enjoy it we will do zoo trips etc. But agsin needs to be on our scedule.
Ive definitely told her to not think about more if she feels she can't manage one.

Good. Unfortunately this new demand for grandmothers to be unpaid servants, and the astonishing entitlement that goes with it, means women are, once again, having to push back just to hang on to their rights - and this time from their own daughters. It's depressing. I'm glad you have the spine to stand up to these unfair demands.

Where on earth did you get that it would please me? You’re making things up. It would make me very sad if my mum had no relationship with my children, and I would never do that. I was only pointing out that she demands things of me all the time (dropping everything to take my children to see her), while I’m not allowed to ask anything in return, so I don’t see why I’m the one who is entitled. I know she said no, that’s why I have stopped asking.

Oh for God's sake give it a rest love. There is no comparison - none at all - between you daydreaming about punishing your mother by refusing to visit and let your kids see their gran and her saying no to doing YOUR work. She's done her childcare, that's over now. You're owed nothing.

You are owed nothing.

When a grandmother wants her daughter to visit with the kids that's a normal desire for family connection and shared time. It would be entitlement if she said you had to spend the day being her servant while she hangs out with your kids. But that's not what's happening.

One is hanging out with family one is unpaid labour. They are not remotely the same. Looking after kids IS WORK.

But you already know this.

Your entitlement has made you attempt to treat her time and energy as resources she owes you. They're not resources. And she doesn't owe you anything.

And you are completely and deliberately ignoring the simple reality that she has already raised her family. Now it's your job to do that.

One is a request for family time together. The other is a demand for unpaid labour.

They're not the same thing. But you already know that.

If you weren't daydreaming about punishing her you would not even have mentioned it, it's a spiteful and bizarre comparison and it doesn't work. So go and visit her or not, at least she's got the common sense to refuse your demands, and good on for her that.

Totally agree with this. I was brought up in the 1960’s/1970s. My maternal grandma lived in a tiny council flat and didn’t drive. Many women of that generation didn’t drive especially working class ones. If it wasn’t possible to get somewhere directly on the bus from near her flat she didn’t go anywhere unless she was given a lift. She might have babysat less than 5 times and was never expected to take us on trips out or anything grandparents do these days or look after us for a whole day. I can’t remember any of my school or university friends having any huge involvement from grandparents either.

Same as my daughter, bless her, I did actually offer to try and re-arrange my working days so I could help out more, but she said I'd done my child-rearing and this was my time! I do help get out when needed though, but she never expects it.

What demands? You’re deliberately missing the part when I said I don’t ask her to do anything anymore and haven’t for years. She doesn’t get any demands to refuse. I have never daydreamed about punishing her at all and never even mentioned doing it, you have made that up. I hope you don’t have adult children of your own if this is how you react if they ever ask for support, or I feel really sorry for them. No wonder the rates of postnatal depression are so high if this is the response that new mothers get when they ask for help.

Good job I didn't say it was better, just different. I imagine if the grandparents were resentful it could be worse. If grandparents and grandchildren are enjoying it then it will probably be better. For me, apart from the wakeful worrying,it is better.

You're deliberately going on and on and on because your entitlement is so deep rooted you think slagging your mother off for standing up to and not doing your job is your right.

You want her time and unpaid labour to do YOUR JOB. It's not support you want her to DO YOUR WORK. And she's not going to, good on her.

She needs support to have her own life despite your entitled demands,

If you had not daydreamed about punishing her you would never have brought it up. The two situations are not remotely comparable. You want her free labour to do WORK and it is YOUR WORK. She wants you to drop round for a visit.

Yes, grandmothers do often have mental health problems because their entitled, selfish daughters try to make demands of them and then their adults daughters try to play the BUT MUH SUPPORT card when they are rightfully refused and have run out of arguments to turn their mothers into their unpaid servants.

Fortunately your mum is wise to you and shut you down.

Oh, guess what, I babysit 2 days a week for my adult SD. I choose it. Nobody made me do it. And I still know that it's not your right to turn your mother into your unpaid servant.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it 😆

You have a partner for that?

I did not bring up punishing her, you did.

Yes, you did. You daydreamed about it, which is why you mentioned it all, and tried to compare the two situations.

I merely pointed out that you were daydreaming about punishing her - thus correctly naming it.

OP you're right that this is a feminist issue - a frequent but unspoken assumption that older women find childcare similarly rewarding, & that they must not be decent, caring people if they don't offer unpaid childcare. Meanwhile it is often tacitly accepted that older men will vary in the support they offer, depending on skills, personality & preferences which might include fence building, financial help or childcare.

I think younger feminist women and their partners can sometimes be blind to this because they are often desperate, trying to plug a gap in care for their children that has been created by the society around them. I'm not really being critical as we can all be a bit blind to others' needs when we are knackered and desperate. Us older women can sometimes be a bit blind to the pressures on our DCs, but we see very clearly the unfairness in expecting one of the poorest demographic groups to provide unpaid labour (even though some enjoy this and take it on willingly).

Perhaps older & younger women on MN could stop pointing the figure at each other and look at solving the social issues that have placed us all here - as a society we now see the value of women's participation in the workforce but CoL rises mean childcare costs often prohibit this - dual modest income households are not viable with more than one child; we have far more materialism pushed to us than previous generations & have got used to higher cost lifestyles; more young people have moved away from friends & family and do not have the casual support from being 'in and out of each others houses' that was easier to give; boys are still not encouraged sufficiently to be nurturing; having a child is still seen as a right and a rite of passage rather than a challenging responsibility that it is perfectly reasonable not to take on.

Any thoughts on how we solve all this?

I never mentioned punishing her. I said it was entitled of her to expect to see my children whenever she wants, which it is. I’ve never even considered stopping her from seeing them, and I didn’t say that I had. I was pointing out that she has no problem asking me to do things, but I can’t ask her to do anything.

Anyway, this is getting me nowhere, the entitlement and denial runs deep in the "Turn my ageing mother into a Stepford Gran" crowd.

But it pleases me to know I called you out on it, and the reality of how you are viewed by others and the poisonous entitlement you are showing will stick in your brain. You won't be able to forget what I've said and you might even become less entitled because of it.

And if nothing else, you didn't get away with talking bollocks without pushback 😋

So my work here is done.

You’ve shown me how truly nasty some people can be towards new mothers who just need some support. That is all.

Good woman.
Childrearing can be hard and I definitely think that it is a shock for first time parents........I definitely hear this from friends whose children are new parents.
They have lived lovely lives of travel, meals out, enjoying their careers, and the sudden pivet into the unpredictable world of parenting can be hard.

But that doesn't mean their mothers owe them their endless free time now that they have a bit of it.

Kind support yes, endless support, absolutely not.

One friend of mine told me early last year that her son and daughter in law genuinely thought it was reasonable to expect her to babysit a new born EVERY Saturday night so they could keep up their regular night out with friends.
Needless to say the 18 months have been brutal for them as they adjust.

My friend said that while she is delighted with the first grandchild, she had absolutely no interest whatsoever in dealing with a newborn and the wakings.
Her husband was aghast at them being asked.
These are a couple in their near mid 30's....so not kids.
Interestingly they are one of the "one and done" crew that have rightly decided that one child is enough.
My friend has been very supportive of their decision as neither of them appear to have realised just how big a change a baby would be to their lifestyle, much less a really demanding active toddler.

Some parents, like myself, gave my all to raising my children, and I really have zero interest in grandchildren and being a part of doing it again in my 60's.
I appreciate that may be shocking, but the vast majority of my close friends in their 60's feel likewise.

I'm only 47, DD is 24 she was a party girl, out every weekend....until she wasn't. I can see she is jealous of mine and DH freedom, but we've only just got that back a few years ago. Youngest is now 19 and in 3rd year of apprenticeship.

I have parented since I was 21, so I'm now enjoying my freedom as I'm still fairly young and can enjoy it.

It's not that I'm not interested in DGC it is that I'd rather spend time with them as a family as my time is limited, and I don't want to do the care and nappies again.

Just to add again, it was my dad who looked after my oldest son two days a week while I worked. But he OFFERED because he was retired at 49. The things he did 🤦‍♀️.

But, he was a full on Dad with me and my brothers too. Great dad.

My mum still worked but by the time I had my second, she too had retired, so she was involved.

They were young. I know my husband would offer too but he is 63 and I’m 62.

People are having their children later when their parents are older.

So my son’s could say “Papa looked after us” - not that they would - but 63 is different from 49.

It’s a different ball game.

I honestly think a lot of these expectations from the current generation of parents of young children, is because they themselves were raised to feel like they were centre of the universe to some extent - they expect that to continue even as adults. And clearly plenty of older parents do go along with that, but the attitude when they refuse to betrays a quite unpleasant ageism towards older women - like a "what are you even for" attitude.

You aren't just 'wanting' it though are you? You see it as an expectation that she's not allowed to say no to.

That's not ok.

I wouldn't go as far as the other poster but I would say your mum owes you nothing.

Parenting and childcare is YOUR job. You wouldn't expect someone to do your paid job for you, especially for no money. Demanding her free labour and then accusing her of shaming you is well out of order.

She's done her shift. Your attitude remains that you think you are entitled to her labour.

You aren't. She is completely within her rights to say no without any of the bullshit if she so choses.

You might not like this but frankly that's your problem not hers fault or for her to feel any guilt whatsoever.

She is allowed to say no. She did say no and I stopped asking. Except for once I called her and begged for a lift to the hospital when my son was having seizures and the ambulance wasn't going to be there for hours. She wouldn't come and had a go at me for asking, saying that I wasn't taking responsibility for him. That's what I mean by her shaming me, not her not wanting to do childcare. I cannot imagine ever
refusing to help my children when they desperately need it in an emergency, but then I love my children.

Whilst I agree with your issue (it’s just an extension of women generally picking up most of the childcare slack full stop), i think the point is they may see you as being more capable of looking after children because you did the bulk - if they didn’t see your DH do it then they may not see him as a natural choice to leave their children with. As a previous post said this is hopefully something that will change as men become more involved in child raising and this would then naturally carry through to being a capable grandparent.

But to be clear I think it is ridiculous they are asking you to actually stop work to facilitate them being able to work - I can’t get my head round that. And just generally if you’re not up for regular childcare then you are entitled for that to be your choice and it should be respected.

She's allowed to say no full stop.

Every single time if she wishes.

There are no ifs or buts to this as much as you are continuing to try and make out.

You resent her for saying no. It's very apparent. That's your issue. She shouldn't feel guilty for it. If you don't feel supported again that's your issue. It is not her responsibility and she may not wish to take on that responsibility under any circumstances.

You are continuing to push the point that there are circumstances that she should have said yes otherwise she's a bad uncaring person.

That's simply not true. She just doesn't want to. Possibly because she feels if she gives an inch you'll take a mile and they'll always be something urgent or important that crops up.

If you don't think it's uncaring to not try to help when a baby is having a medical emergency, you and I have very different ideas of what uncaring means.