AIBU to think female sports categories should apply at all levels not just the olympics?

[Fastline]

In light of the welcome news that biological males or people with SRY (Y) gene are no longer allowed to compete in the women’s category in the Olympics, AIBU to think that it shouldn’t only be elite sports women who should have fairness and safety in sport?

AIBU to think that all women and girls deserve the protected female category for both fairness and safety from grass roots sport to county level and beyond.

I mean, what is the point of having separate categories, which are there for biological differences if anyone can self identify into them.

You haven’t answered this.

If the little local village sports has a team for women and excludes men then there is a reason for this. That reason should be respected.

Men aren’t excluded from sport because they have short hair or don’t wear lipstick or because they have facial hair. They are not even excluded because they have a penis. They are excluded by biological sex.

Why should a 5ft 7 60 year old trans identifying man be allowed to play on the little village women’s sports team but a 5ft 7, 60 year old non trans identifying man be excluded.

On what grounds?

The exclusion is not about what he wears or how he feels, it is simply because he is a biological man.

Do you actually understand categories and exclusions?

Affected in what way? In 30 years of playing/coaching football I've come across 1 transwoman (to my knowledge) and I don't really see how it has affected anyone. I guess we can see how many transwomen will be playing and if the percentage is high enough to start their own league or a mixed league. I really don't have an answer but at generic hobby leagues for adults i feel like this is a much bigger issue online than it is to those of us invovled.

Have you read the examples on the thread?

There are multiple examples.

Do these women not matter?

Why don’t you care about women?

A) One women not getting a place in the lineup because a man has taken it

B) Increased safety concerns for women playing against him (and even on the same team). They have been told they are playing women remember? They have not agreed to play against a man.

C) Women self excluding because they dont want to play on a team that now mixed sex or they cant (religious/cultural reasons)

Why can't these men go play in men's team or mixed sex teams instead?

Completely agree with you OP! I find it madness this discussion has even needed to be had it’s just common sense!

for me, this whole ‘being inclusive’ isn’t really about that anymore. It’s become about excluding women from their own spaces, opportunities, safety, language, motherhood, achievements, etc! What are we telling young girls if we just allow this to happen?

Exactly

I only speak for the hobby leagues I've played for but every team struggles to get players and everyone gets more than enough playtime. Unlimited subs and often there isn't anyone to sub.

The skill levels vary so much. There are players who are former professionals and then there are the ones that touched a ball for the first time this week at the age of 40. The former professionals were more dangerous than our trans player. The obese 6ft women without body control are dangerous. The ones who who love to play physical game and slide tackel every moment are dangerous. I don't disagree that biological men in general are stronger. But the trans people i know have a reduced fitness levels due to their hormone therapy.

As for cultural/religious reasons can't play with transwomen. I think there are so many things that can cause cultural/religious problems.

I don't think transmen are anymore welcome to womens team than transwomen. Or thanswomen to mens team. I don't really see this as a safer option for anyone. I do think there should be a mixed league cause quite afew women enjoy playing with men. But we don't have one. Hope someone starts one but hopefully doesn't take our players.
There are so few transwomen who play football that I just don't see thia as something that is a massive issue that requires bans on all levels. But that is just me, and it is fine we don't agree and I won't be doing gender testing so they will be the gender that rhey sign up for FA so I would not even know if someone was trans in our little Sunday league team

Really? You wouldn’t know if there was a man on the team?

It’s necessary because a women’s team should be for women only. Nobody has to get hurt or miss out on a major medal for it to be an issue. Women need, want and deserve their own sports.

That’s not your decision to make.

I don’t think going on personal anecdotes is a great idea but as you have I personally know some women from the UAE who go are living in my city who love football but would self exclude if there was a trans woman in the league.
Your argument is that would be ok because it’s only a couple of women affected

How in practice can individual consideration possibly be done in a way which is fair to women? A team may decide they’re cool with a transwoman in their team. But are all the competing team members asked? Would they be able to object without the risk of bullying and exclusion - which is exactly what has happened in some cases where a girl or woman has dared to be honest. If you don’t understand how many women are susceptible to peer pressure, #bekind syndrome etc you’re naive.

Because apparently, according to @Rewis because women’s sport at lower levels is so un-important that fairness doesn’t matter.

im trying to imagine @Rewis stating that another category, such as junior division under 16’s would be fine with an u17 in there because it would only happen very very rarely.

or would @dizzydizzydizzy declare that a bio male should be allowed to compete in the boys under 10’s because the aren’t that competitive if they are under 5ft 7.

funny how categories and protections are considered and understood when it’s boys but not women.

@TunnocksorDeath .. it is not as clear as your post might lead one to believe.

The rules for rowing in 2022 permitted males in the female competition if they lowered their testosterone to 5nmol/l for a year.
https://www.britishrowing.org/2022/09/british-rowing-announces-revised-trans-and-non-binary-inclusion-competition-policy-and-procedures/

In 2023, the policy was revised and the rules changed for competition and now exclude males from the female category (but permits participation in non competitive events based on self identification.. I don't know whether this is significant for rowing but in some sports this means that men can join a women's ride and it can mean fewer women participants in events designed to increase female participation. https://www.britishrowing.org/about-us/policies-guidance/

Many sports did not 'make a song and dance' about this change because they did not want to draw attention to the fact that males had been allowed in the female category and they also wanted to avoid the potential backlash and possible legal claims supported by GLP received by other organisations.

"As for cultural/religious reasons can't play with transwomen. I think there are so many things that can cause cultural/religious problems."

I am curious as to why you think "exclusion" is bad when we're talking about excluding male people from female sports, but when it comes to excluding certain female people from female sports that is fine and merely elicits a shrug from you?

If you are motivated by inclusivity, why is it that you think it is okay to exclude some female people from female sports in order to enable certain special male people to play in female sports instead?

To me, that's illogical.

Because @Rewis only understands categories if they don’t contain women and girls at non elite level.

Boy’s under 17 - absolutely no exclusions or case by case basis

Women’s sport - no problem to have inclusion outside the category on a case by case basis.

No, but most take some form of drugs which means they’re more masculine. Obviously they’re the ones who can’t compete against undrugged women. If not, analysis and someone with better knowledge than I can make the decision whether they’re able or unable to compete. Obviously there’ll be a list of acceptable circumstances, I can’t list everyone here, but if they’re still an undrugged female then they can stay in the women’s sports. The current rules around doping should suffice for transmen, in the majority.

Yes it would. The women in their 40s would be disadvantaged by the biology of being women (size, muscle mass, strength, pelvis variation) plus reaching the age range of hormonally being past their optimal peak and facing the additional challenges of peri-menopause. The man was advantaged to begin with and would retain more advantage through middle age and beyond.

My teenage sons are of slight build and despite me doing weight lifting, I won't do things like arm wrestling with them anymore because their natural advantage is too strong. My then 11yo was similar height and slighter build compared to me but managed to lightly sprain my wrist.

The male musculo-skeletal advantage starts young and stays wide open through life.

Your link is to the 2022 rules.
They were revised in 2023
https://www.britishrowing.org/2023/08/british-rowing-updates-competition-eligibility-policy-and-procedures/

I am absolutely stunned at the women on here stating that categories don’t matter if the sport isn’t serious.

Or that a man would be eligible to play contact sport with women so long as he was older than them and short for a man!

Neither of the posters have been able to explain why we have sex based categories if they can be mixed sex on demand.

And would they apply the same rules to other sports categories?

Would they support 18 year olds playing on under 12s teams?

Or able bodied athletes playing on a Paralympic team?

If not, why do they see women's categories as the only 'negotiable' one?

I agree, but , I entered a local 5K on Friday. £2.50 entry fee, no one asked to prove their name or age let alone their sex, which is the same for much more serious amateur races. The cost and additional admin would be huge.

No one asks for proof of age either.. they go ontrust. But for some reason, people think its socially acceptable to lie about sex but not their age.

Which is fine, no one expects things to be checked in amateur sports. It relies on honesty. There’ll always be cheats.

However, people on here have been suggesting that men can legitimately play, race in the female category if they are a shorter, older man or such like. It’s totally ridiculous.

I have no idea.

I would love @dizzydizzydizzy and @Rewis to answer this question.

Would you support 18 year olds racing in the U16 category if the 18 year old was a little on the short side and wasn’t very good?

And btw when you suggested a man could play football with the women if he was say 5ft 7, which is short for a man but it’s still 2-3 inches taller than the average woman.

It’s because your viewpoint js extremely black and white with no grey areas. There is a full spectrum of sport from elite competitive to non-competitive grass roots. In the former, total fairness is paramount, in the latter, encouraging participation becomes more important.

Real life is rarely black and white.

And by the way, for clarity, I’m not saying that fairness doesn’t matter in grass roots sport but I am saying that the threshold can be lowered to ensure greater participation. So in elite sport, all sorts of over the counter and everyday prescription drugs will get an athlete a ban because they can be used to enhance performance. People playing on the local football team or competing in a local running race are highly unlikely to get tested because the stakes are low and costs of testing are high.

Also, you have talked a lot about the safely aspect for women but that appears to be a theoretical possibility rather than something that has been properly investigated. I think we have to consider that it may well be possible for coaches to keep their people safe because they understand the issues in their particular sport and know the individuals involved. A PP who is a football coach did address this.

Anyway, I have no more to say on this matter. It has been interesting discussing it but I feel like I am repeating myself.

60yo men probably have more opportunities for football then women.
Veterans leagues, friendly 5 a side leagues, walking football...