AIBU to think female sports categories should apply at all levels not just the olympics?

[Fastline]

In light of the welcome news that biological males or people with SRY (Y) gene are no longer allowed to compete in the women’s category in the Olympics, AIBU to think that it shouldn’t only be elite sports women who should have fairness and safety in sport?

AIBU to think that all women and girls deserve the protected female category for both fairness and safety from grass roots sport to county level and beyond.

I mean, what is the point of having separate categories, which are there for biological differences if anyone can self identify into them.

The ideal would be 4 categories, but that’s too far too fast. Trans women are raking testosterone blockers and trans men are taking testosterone, it isn’t a match but neither should be competing against women with no performance enhancers.

Some events have introduced a non binary category- guess which sex wins the NB category?

https://www.shewon.org/

That is actually so sad.

So much for inclusivity.

I think a third category is an inclusive as we can get with one step. I don’t want to exclude trans women or trans men from competing at all, I’m glad they’re taking part, that is the ideal, surely.

Trans people aren't excluded from competing in sport though. Transwomen can participate in mens/open events and transmen in the women's events if they're not taking testosterone

But transmen are taking testosterone, in itself a performance enhancing drug, a drug even the men aren’t allowed to take. I think a blanket ‘no drugs’ is best for men’s and women’s competitions.

Not all transmen take testosterone

Water polo is an odd one, I’ve had some fairly strong discussions with school about water polo. DD is on a sports scholarship, meaning she’s required to play across all sports when asked. I’ve put my foot down with water polo though as they play mixed teams up to U16, they frequently play up a couple of year groups, meaning it’s not unusual for U14 girls to be playing mixed U16 water polo. It’s a vicious, contact sport, why Swim England think it’s OK for 13y old girls to be playing contact sports against 15y old boys I have no idea - it’s not allowed in rugby.

Thank you! In 99.9 % of cases everyone with a brain can tell a male from a female, even my cat could. The staff/volunteers at non elite sports events just need to have spines and a willingness to deal with male in a frock tantrums when the decision is no.

You are absolutely right. I wish the narrative wasn't always so biased. As soon as women and girls are given anything back, the question from politicians, the media etc is always 'but what about trans people [always meaning trans identified males of course].
And the answer should be: no, what about women and girls?
Trans identified males have all the same rights as every other human + the extra rights based on gender reassignment under the EA. They can 'present' however they like, wear what they want, have their hair how they want,whatever; but obviously they can't have the sex-based rights given to females.
Grass roots sport is so important because so many girls give up sport entirely in their early to mid teens, and any barriers at all are unnacceptable. Even 'just the one, and 'she's' so lovely' male is too many males.

And the idea that sex-based rules 'exclude' trans people is a nonsense. They can still play the sport within their own sex category, subject to the same rules as everyone else (including, of course, no performance-enhancing drugs). And that includes the real-life 'rule' that if you happen to be rubbish at the sport you enjoy, you don't have some kind of human right to be on a talent-based team. None of us do.

I hang on to the fact these are these are likely the final death throes of the self-id movement, giving it their all before they finally realise the jig is up. It will get nasty and it may last a while, there is no u-turn coming.

IOC et al aren't going to say "oopsies, we made a mistake", the Supreme Court won't rip up FWS (and nor will it be overturned), and I have a feeling that even if the Democrats win the next US Election, they will have bigger fish to fry than undoing all Trump's laws; and they/them may have finally realised by then that their fave ideology is a vote-loser.

Clear rules and self declaration (not self identification) should be enough.. with the sporting body reserving the right to ask for additional evidence if required.

For the most part, only those trying to push boundaries, will deliberately break the rules.

Most sports require their participants to sign declarations of fair play and clean sport.. and most people conform.

The challenge with current situation in many sports is that the rules have been changes to permit self identification into the female category. Most have rolled this back and reissued guidance, in the UK. Football is one of the outliers, but have recently indicated a willingness to change.. I have lost track of exactly where the FA are on this. The other challenge will be countries who have adopted self id into their legal framework.. Ireland and Australia... for example.

Yes, does anyone know what is happening in football?

My next door neighbour is trans man and transitioned while a pupil ar an all-girls school (very well known grammar school). He said be didn’t want to upset the girls so always changed for PE in the disabled loo. He said the kids never batted an eyelid over his transition but some of the teachers bullied him, which I think is shocking.

Regarding the actual topic, I think only biological women should be allowed to take part in female competitive sport, and the higher the stakes the more important that is. So London Marathon for example, anyone competing in the female category should
have been born a girl.

Like some PPs have said, I think this has been the case in many grass roots sports for a while - I remember bearing sometime last year on Radio 4 about how some trans women were being excluded from their local women’s football team. One of them has been in it for decades and, understandably, was very sad. I can’t remember all the ins and outs but to be honest that did seem a bit over the top to exclude her, so I am not so sure about this one.

Why is it over the top to exclude a man from a local womans team?

Why would men think they've a right to be on women's teams in the first place?

Because tbey had been playing in the team for decades witb no issues. I mean if the winner of the local league was going to get some massive prize, I might see it a bit differently but I highly doubt that was the case. It seems mean to throw someone out who has been a team member for decades. Fine, you can say no to new transwomen members.

No issues? There was at least one woman who was not able to play in every single match because her spot had been taken by a man.

And you or he have no idea how many other women were excluded/self-excluded once they realised it was a mixed team, not the women's team they had been led to believe.

People get away with doing all sorts of wrong things for a long time, but it still doesn't make it right.

What about the safety of the woman playing against him?

We know that many woman have been unable to speak out against trans identified men in their teams so you can't be certain that the women in the team are all happy.

It's not mean to say men cannot play in womens teams

Yes there were issues. One wom didn't get a spot because of a man. Who knows how many self excluded?

They could play on a unisex team if they like playing with both sexes.

Every single trans woman in a team league displaces a biological woman.

It is also more dangerous for adult men to be playing contact sport with women.

The prize was playing in the team which one woman lost out on.

That’s all conjecture. You might be right but you might not be. We have no way of knowing whether the team was full or was constantly short of players. We have no idea whether this person put anyone else off either. I just felt sorry for this particular person.

We do know that it would have been dangerous.

We also know that even of there weren’t enough women and the team was short they might have been able to get another women involved in sport.

And lastly, in case it’s not been said it actually dangerous to have adult men playing against women in contact sports.