For thinking it is odd for trans men to give birth

[Overthinkingotter]

Talked to friend today and got on subject of trans men having babies. I said that, imo, being pregnant/giving birth is the last thing I’d want to do as a trans man as surely the process of pregnancy would be incredibly triggering for someone with gender dysphoriac? I the said that, if I were a trans man who wanted a baby, I’d most likely find an alternative way rather than carrying the baby myself.

I thought this was quite a mild comment, but fried reacted as if I had said something quite offensive/bigoted.
Is my view really so unreasonable/extreme?

This is not an article. It is you trying to get AI to agree with you.

Nobody would say it is ableist to advise stopping a harmful drug in pregnancy. What people might acknowledge is that it could be hard for a trans man to stop the drugs that make them more masculine for the sake of pregnancy. Acknowledging that it's tough for them doesn't mean you are encouraging them to take it.

The link to the paper is in there

Will I see you on the threads of women on here who have SMIs and take SSRIs and things berating them for being so selfish and dangerous?

This?

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24602967/

If I were the poster, I would get it done with the proviso that it was done by a female. But as I said in a previous post, if the real issue is that she can't trust them on this score, then that is an appalling situation.

Again in that PPs analogy all trans identifying men are the chocolates.

And again, you are ignoring the fact that it can and has happened and women are self-excluding as a result. Those women don't give two shits at how unlikely or not it would be to happen to them, the fact that it has and could again is more than enough for them to self exclude. This is the problem, they should never have to fear the slightest possibility of this happening at all, if they are told they will have a woman HCP, it should be a female and not a trans identifying male.

At least one woman ended up in the papers because she was having to actively fight to get access to healthcare after she refused a trans identifying HCP for her intimate exam and had healthcare withheld from her because of this damning evidence of her "transphobia", and Dr Beth (Theodore) Upton told the whole country on the stand that he would do the same in the highly publicised NHS Fife tribunal.

So that's two. In such an apparently tiny pool of trans identifying HCPs, two is actually a substantial number.

These examples are just the two highly public instances of this happening. Is it happening more, and we just aren't hearing about it because women have been so silenced by aggressive accusations of transphobia, bigotry, and hysteria over something that's "unlikely to happen"? I'm going to go with yes.

No

https://eprints.gla.ac.uk/300608/2/300608.pdf

That doesnt make sense when it comes to.smear tests because the number of TW performing.smear tests is so low. The chances of you turning up (putting your hand in the bowl) and getting a TW (a poisonous chocolate by your analogy) is so tiny. The people doing smear tests on others are overwhelmingly women with a few men, probably more trans men, and a tiny amount of trans women. Miniscule.

By my analogy, the chances of turning up, putting your hand in the bowl, getting not just a poisonous chocolate (a TW) but a deadly poisonous one (a predatory trans woman), is so minute that it isnt worth thinking about.

You seem to be being deliberately obtuse.

A tiny chance, no matter how tiny, is still a chance.

Some women are self excluding because there is still that chance.

The NHS should be able to guarantee same sex female HCP for intimate examinations for those women that need or want them.

Currently there is no such guarantee. It should not be this way, and it does not need to be this way.

You are also ignoring both of the examples I have provided in your "tiny chance" minimisation.

This has already happened.

The woman who was refused healthcare after refusing the trans identified male (nurse IIRC) for her intimate examination, and a male trans identified doctor who has stated in a tribunal that he would also do this.

You are also ignoring that in the miniscule trans identifying male HCP population, 2 such incidences is actually a significant number, and that these are just two highly public instances and that there may be more given the chilling effect that trans activists have had on women in recent times.

@GlovedhandsCecilia

The amount of time you are taking to essentially ridicule the women who are self excluding, and how much effort you are putting into minimising the likely hood of something that has literally already happened is really distasteful too btw.

So I read this paper and it seems the crux of what is being argued is here:

"Despite this misinformation offered by a provider, above, other pro-
viders acknowledged that pregnancy was quite possible while on
testosterone and described advising their patients to maintain birth
control practices if having sex with people who have sperm. This
advisement may situate pregnancy while taking supplemental testos-
terone as risky, per se, even if existing empirical evidence establishing
such risks is scant, equivocal, or imbued with normative judgments about
potential fetal outcomes"

Specifically the last line. I read it as saying that actually there is limited evidence that taking Testesterone is harmful and then questioning how to counsel patients given the scant evidence. There is also the argument that some outcomes for the fetus are seen as unacceptable and that is ableism. I don't know where I stand on that argument as it is complex, but it is a similar argument to what lots are making about SSRIs and similar in pregnancy. It's the idea that we should be trying to create "perfect babies" that some see as ableist.

Also, if we do not counsel women who have other reasons to be on testosterone the same way we counsel trans men about pregnancy risks, then that is problematic.

Nobody is ridiculing anyone. I am saying it doesn't make statistical sense. If you don't have smear tests, it has no impact on me. I think it's sad to potentially miss out on life saving screening on the tiny chance a TW might be randomly assigned to do your smear test, but I'm happy you get to choose, either way.

There is limited evidence, because it is not considered ethical to conduct research on pregnant women/babies that has the potential to create harm.

Womem taking testosterone for 'gender affirming care' are not doing so for a physical medical need. It strikes me as absolutely extraordinary that anyone would suggest they do anything but stop, if it has potential to harm the baby.

Do you think the same about women with mental health conditions who have to be on medication to remain mentally stable? Do you think they should just stop, or if they really can't, not conceive?

Sre you talking about the woman in a private hospital who refused to give her private care?

Or did this happen in an NHS hospital?

No I don't. Testosterone is not being used by these women to manage a mental health condition either.

I think a lot of trans men would be mentally unstable without it so it's the same thing really. They are taking a drug to stabilise a mental health condition and that drug is harmful to fetuses. I don't see the difference.

@GlovedhandsCecilia the above reply was also for you.

In response to your post at 10.34, again you are being deliberately obtuse.

It doesn't have to make statistical sense, women are self excluding because there is any chance at all. There shouldn't be any chance of a male HCP turning up if a woman asks for a female HCP to give her an intimate examination, that's the whole point.

I'm not actually talking about myself but I can understand why other women are self excluding because 1) I am a woman, 2) I have empathy for women, and 3) I know that this has actually happened. But nevertheless you are ridiculing the women who are self excluding for this reason:
"I think it's sad to potentially miss out on life saving screening on the tiny chance a TW might be randomly assigned to do your smear test, but I'm happy you get to choose, either way."

That's just taking the piss isn't it? It's not a free choice these women are making like "Ooh bit of necessary, possibly life saving healthcare this week? Nah! Don't feel like it!". The choice has been removed from their hands because their consent is not being respected by the NHS and some male trans identifying male HCPs.

If the NHS (and any male trans identifying male HCPs like Beth Upton, and that nurse IIRC) would stop lying and ignoring female patients consent, and instead guaranteed that when requested only female HCPs would perform intimate examinations, those women would no longer self exclude.

The problem is not the women who are self excluding here.

Testosterone is not being used as a mental health medication here.

Equaliy you could argue someone might be 'mentally unstable' without drinking a bottle of vodka a day. I doubt many would see that as something that should be deemed okay

I'd probably see more logic in it if even 5% of HCPs who say they are female are not. That isnt the case though so yes, it does seem irrational and I can't get behind that.

Look, I ask for a Black HCP at times and that is accommodated. I have no issue with someone requesting a very specific HCP on the NHS. I just see the chances of it being aan accepted request, but then getting someone who isn't really Black by my standards as about the same as I see me requesting a female and getting a TW. Very remote.

Had a quick google and my memory was right, it was a male trans identifying nurse. It happened at an NHS hospital.

It's being used to treat what many here and elsewhere see as a mental illness, right? And it works. It seems to alleviate gender dysphoria, just like SSRIs seem to alleviate anxiety and depression despite similar shaky evidence that challenge that belief.

What i googled occurred at Princess Grace private hospital.

Alcohol works for some people too, alleviates anxiety, etc. What's the difference?

This...with bells on.