Is MN feeding unhealthy attitudes towards men?

[Grtscott]

Some threads I've read this morning have helped me to realise that my thinking about men has changed since joining MN. And not in a good way.

There's an undertone that men need to do things the woman's way, or it's wrong. That men should be grateful for any sex that women are willing to give in a long term relationship, even if that peters out to no sex at all.

Men are seen to be babies who can't do anything for themselves, and need to have someone pre plan and organise their lives, but god forbid they fall into the pattern of behaviour of expecting their female partner to do these things for them, as that's what they've always done.

This thinking is observable to a greater or lesser extent across the boards.

I've also recognised where this thinking has affected the way I think about my wonderful man, and sometimes in things I've said to him or actions towards him. I need to watch this in future.

I'm concerned that the general thinking about men on this website can't be good for society if this is the way women think, and are encouraged to think by others.

If women treat men this way collectively and have low expectations around them, no wonder the bar is getting lower.

Saying something gives you the ick is simply saying you don’t find that trait attractive.

I do agree people can and should be criticised for expressing preferences disrespectfully. But I find women are criticised for merely having said dealbreakers. When women post here to say they only wish to date university educated men / only want to date men who pay for anything / don’t date men shorter than them they are routinely criticised.

Yeah not gonna touch a bisexual bloke, no matter what you say.

Most of the women on this site must be divorced or in a bad relationship. They think men are worthless and no good. Read the replies can’t image being with one of these women.

Absolutely. I’m shocked at the hatred of men on here.

I also think MN is very pro divorce and very against anything other than a 50:50 split in domestic chores and childcare, regardless of hours worked in paid employment.

I mean… when the bloke cheats, is an addict, abusive (in so many ways etc.) , doesn’t pull his weight etc. what other option in there? Love him straight?

Even worse being their son. How can you have this attitude and parent a male child, it makes me really sad

I don’t give a shit about what people say about me
i am one of 3 sisters, I went to an all girls school
I have 3 sons, I know lots of their friends very well
i work in a senior tech role, dominated by men

the experience on here is not mine, I do not see it at work, in my boys, or their friends
people can sneer, and belittle, call me a handmaiden. That’s about them, if they want their view and outlook that is their prerogative. I will live my life my way, which includes believing my boys are amazing, hard working, polite, decent people.

I am confused. Has anyone said your sons are not amazing people? You seem to be picking a fight where none exists.

I have an amazing son too. I don't confuse his individual amazingness- I know that is not a word- with population level statistics.

How is telling women to expect more from men the same as men being useless. Either we expect too much, or not enough? Pick a lane.

Is it beyond your ken to imagine that there are men who are in fact useless? I married a good guy, but then life happened and he ended up diving into the bottle and completely detaching from family life - no days out, no housework, no parenting, nothing. And we both worked full time, it should have been a 50/50 split. His excuse ended up being that he was brought up 'traditional' (MIL would NOT have stood for that one!). After he left, I had less housework to do because the mess he made was no longer there.

And I have seen far, far, far worse on here.

Also you talk about women being 'in a bad relationship' as if that is a moral flaw in these women. Leaving a bad relationship is actually not all that easy. Maybe you need to develop a little empathy?

That’s not true.

@Grtscott
You should have switched on voting, then thousands of us could tell you that you are wrong, much more quickly.

I've been ploughing through this thread all day. I can't agree with the OP at all. Yes, there are some unreasonable or extreme (and sometimes deliberately inflammatory) opinions on here, just as there are in real life, but nowhere in real life have I come across so much wisdom about the normalisation of men in heterosexual relationships failing to treat their life partners as equals, not even on a women's studies course I took as part of my degree. I've been here for many years - not sure how many, but well over a decade - and have read so many intelligent and supportive discussions aimed at women who post in crisis about the state of their relationships. I came to realise that my own relationship, which I would have described as happy enough, was actually abusive and was hurting both me and our children, and as a result I was able to muster the courage to leave it.

Those minded to agree with the OP will probably interpret this as me being encouraged to put a bomb under my life a baying horde of man-hating harpies, but nothing could be further from the truth. I didn't really post on my own behalf (only one thread, quite anodyne - I thought - in my complaints, and quite mild in terms of the responses I got, though they were unequivocal about the fact that I was in a damaging relationship) but I read so much and thought a lot, over many, quite measured, years until I came to see that my relationship was actually making me physically ill. I literally didn't see what was happening before my eyes, because I saw feminism in terms of being held back in your career, the wage gap, the tyranny of beauty ideals, etc, and not about the burdens and constraints in my own life.

I'm enduringly grateful to the insightful women here who patiently help women like me open their eyes to the dysfunctional gender dynamics that toxify so many heterosexual relationships. If you reduce that support to a glib and dismissive rejection of what they do to "man-hating" or "misandry then it's your loss.

It's cute that you think men don't talk negatively about women they're not interested in. Hell, they'll use degrading, dehumanising language about women they are interested in, and often volunteer it – making unwanted and unnecessary commentary about how women in the public eye look and whether they'd fuck them.

Women on Mumsnet tend to only talk negatively about men with traits they're not attracted to if asked what they think of that trait.

I've never known a woman I didn't fancy making small talk with on public transport turn on me and call me an uptight bitch or a lesbian.

Men? It's happened a lot more than once.

It's interesting that the constant stream of examples of awful male behaviour posted about on MN has made you worried that MNers are anti-men, rather than worried about the men's behaviour...

I too have altered my opinions about men since I've been on MN, because frankly I had been very blind to how many women suffer abuse, disrespect and just general shitness in their relationships. Unlike you, apparently, this has made me appreciate my husband more. Though it's certainly made me certain that if I found myself single I would stay that way!

I agree. I think when people post about relationships they should not disclose gender of OP and partner because the comments are very often vilifying the man and supporting the woman. If a woman posts that her husband isn't doing housework well it's weaponised incompetence, a form of abuse, laziness. If a man posts his wife isn't doing it she's depressed, worn down from carrying the mental load, feeling unappreciated. Man not having sex with his wife- must be another woman or a porn addiction, woman not wanting sex- man isn't treating her right.

A lot of behaviours in relationships are very 'gendered' though, unfortunately. If people don't want to be stereotyped, maybe they should stop behaving in such stereotypical ways!

I agree. Especially the attitude to men experiencing mental health challenges...

I agree with you, but there are also real and observable patterns in men's behaviour that are commented on. I think the overall narrative about male behaviour lacks any discussions of its redeeming qualities, but that is probably because there's a pretty large selection bias in the behaviour anyone would bother posting about. I'm not on here commenting on the nice stuff my DH does, or how useful his goal orientation can be. I'm just here talking about the the frustrations...

God I hope so. At the moment I feel like I'm influencing Mumsnet rather than the other way round. I'm having to do some pretty heavy lifting here, armed only with independently verified statistical data about the various inequities and violence women face.

It's a hard job but someone's gotta do it.

I haven’t heard this at all. The worst vitriol I’ve heard is routinely handed out to female politicians, far worse than the male ones, and particularly from men!

Having worked in a male dominated environment for decades I manage to see them with their respectable faces off, being the only woman there I’m now an honorary man and they don’t try to be decent for me like they do their wives, sisters, mothers and friends. It’s eye opening and is 100% why I’ve lost all respect for most men and will never have a relationship with one ever again. Loads of women are totally deluded about the men in their lives and how they behave/talk when pack mentality takes over.

That was the problem with the poster who tried to tell me there was no such thing, though - she didn't bother to explain her pov at all, it was just 'there's no such thing', end of. I do have to say, though, that although I agree misogyny and misandry aren't exact opposites due to the power imbalance, I disagree that sexism from women towards men doesn't merit its own term.

Many do this and it’s obvious what sex they are. Men’s failings let them down again in this respect.
Men also post and paint themselves as utter heroes and their wives lazy unemployable wretches who make their lives a misery - his subsequent posts usually drip feed a more realistic scenario by the end of the thread though.