Mumsnet race to the bottom

[limeandwater]

I have noticed on MN there has been a real race to the bottom mentality. To be clear I am not talking about budget advice threads that can be incredibly helpful.

I am talking about the posters that think working people should be so accepting of a miserable life.

Again I am not talking about 5 star holidays in The Maldives, 26 plate Range Rovers, or shopping at Harrods Food Hall.

Somebody posts about the price of coffee then the response is to make your own and bring it with you. Somebody posts about the price of a cafe lunch on a family day out and the response is bring your own sandwiches. Somebody posted about the cost of running a car and the answer is cycle. Like that's realistic in a rainy December.

When did people get so accepting that life had to be miserable?

From one extreme to another, absolutely ignoring any kind of balanced middle.
Never change MN, never change.

Half of you are fucking ridiculous. 😂
I walk therefore everybody walked. 😂
Human rights 4x4😂
Just amazing work ladies

What exactly do you mean?

It’s obvious what she means - and she’s right.

I meant in relation to this thread. And no it’s not obvious, hence me asking

She's 100% right and I loved that post ... she means

a) many people here exaggerate wildly to make their point, so that the reality (eg some posters protest at the excess of Christmas consumerism) becomes "a claxon goes off at the merest whiff of tinsel" - something that has never happened

b) posters attribute views to opposing posters that they never expressed, in an attempt to make them look ridiculous, eg "you think you're entitled to takeaway coffee as a basic human right!" - something no one actually believes

c) posters consider their own experience to be the norm, since it's all they've ever known, and since NORMAL=GOOD (because WEIRD=BAD), anything outside that norm should be frowned upon

Amazingly, everyone has their own unique notion of the point at which being careful crosses over into parsimoniousness and, even more amazingly, everyone is right, apparently.

I'm not quite sure what you mean.

Of course most people think the way they handle their finances and their balance between spending and not spending is right.

Unless of course they have an addiction to buying and spending, as some people do, and worry about it but feel powerless to change.

It sounds as though you are just having a dig at people such as myself who are careful with their money. What you spend your money on is entirely your business but I defend my right to be careful with mine without being judged.

@Farewelltothatid I don't see being careful with my money as being anything to be ashamed of. So long as being careful doesn't cross over into parsimoniousness.

I mean that everyone would agree that it's not good to cross over into parsimoniousness, but everyone would not agree at what point being careful becomes parsimoniousness.

Neither of us knows whether I am more or less careful with money than you. I may be more careful, to the point at which you think I'm parsimonious. And I'd probably insist I'm not, but that you are profligate.

Each of us will agree that being careful shouldn't cross over into parsimoniousness, but one of us is likely to consider the other parsimonious.

Tbh I dont go round judging what other people do with their money. So I wouldn't even think about whether you were parsimonious or not.
I merely posted my view on spending because I was annoyed by the OP being so sneering at people who do things like taking their own sandwiches

I think one of the things about commute and walking is that the nature of many jobs has changed as has the development on new estates without decent bus services . I don’t drive ( although husband does but didn’t till he was 50 ) so at 64 I’ve done a lot of walking and buses and trains . At 16 I was working in a bank , this was a 40 minute walk and I used to get the bus back - those kind of jobs just aren’t there so much anymore . My friends worked in all kinds of jobs in the offices etc , all within 30 minutes walk simply because there was a lot more local work to be had at that time and a lot more big local employers ( midlands mining town) - now several of my friends who stayed local have jobs that involve them working on an industrial estate 7 miles away or jobs for companies like home care which involve them driving around to elderly people’s homes . Some now work in the nearest big city, so that’s 40 minutes each way on the train , bus or drive there. The bank branch I worked at was the biggest in the country for that bank and had 47 staff! And then of course if you add far more homexeorking into the mix that changes things too .

even then some people used to bring lunch in every day and others got lunch from the sandwich bars or M&S etc and bought coffees ( even though we had coffee, tea and a kettle )

no one is right or wrong, people just put different value on what gives them pleasure , for some it’s seeing their savings adding up, for others it’s buying their daily sandwich at M&S , for others it’s the fact they can work from home, although I’ve mixed feelings on this, I can totally see why it suits some depending on life stage, family commitments and personality too . but it’s not for everyone . My H ass freelance consultant projects guy deals with a load of younger people doing this who do seem to use it as an opportunity to work when they feel like it and are never contactable.
The person bringing in lunch may spend a bomb on their houses, holidays, beauty routines, but not place value on coffees and lunch bought in and the person who does value that may not put as much value on spending on their house, holidays, beauty etc - we are all different.

certainly though I do think people walked more because I can say in my area it was rare for people to have 2 cars, kids were not constantly driven to activities ( my parents were comfortably off and mine was brownies once a week, which I walked to and from) and no one I knew lived on a new development in the middle of nowhere with no facilities on hand . Life has simply changed over the years .

There is lots more historical data online from various sources, if you took the trouble to check.
It's often more educational than contradicting people online just for the sake of it.

If you've been used to one level of income/lifestyle, it's harder to adjust to having less than if you've always not had much.

There's things I'd be sad to give up. (Car mainly) Just because other people cope doesn't mean I wouldn't be upset.

Even cheap nice things get you told off. I started a thread about lipstick once (something you can get very cheaply if you know where to look) and got told off by a fun sponge. Booo!

Re coffee...I go out for coffee several times a week, I could live without it, but I enjoy doing it so I class it as a worthwhile expense.

I never visit a beauty parlour, I find that a waste of time and money, though no doubt others love being pampered and regard sitting in coffee bars and bistros a waste of time and money.

I think my point is that everyone should enjoy doing what they enjoy doing IF they can afford it, I sure as hell wouldn't let someone tell me to not enjoy spending my money, or budgeting my money, to suit their idea of what's right.

That was exactly my point ?

I've been telling people to hit up AI for answers and advice instead of scrolling through online forums. Those places can get pretty toxic and draining, but AI feels way more chill — it's a safer spot to talk things through without all the negativity.

Would that be the same AI that told a young man that is noose was beautiful? And that hanging himself seemed a completely logical solution to his issues.

Would that be the same AI that told a young man that is noose was beautiful? And that hanging himself seemed a completely logical solution to his issues.

I don't think anyone would think a cup of coffee was unreasonable per se, but i think it's when posters complain about not being able afford to save up for a deposit for a house or be a sahp like their parents did but are spending money on things that didn't exist when their parents were saving and if they did, were certainly considered non-essential. So while i would never say it's as simple as stop buying coffee and you can afford a house, five coffees a week x 2 people, 2 gym memberships, nails/hair/brows. soft play (£9.50 from another post!) and a takeway or lunch out every week would add up to over £100 a week on discretionary spending their parents would not have done.
Add in holidays, activities and days out and a substantial amount a month is being fritted away because 'we work hard', 'I refuse to let my children suffer' and/or 'we live in one of the wealthiest countries in the world'
It's hard to muster up much sympathy with the couple on the news whining they had to spend money to get home from Dubai 'that we have been saving for years for a deposit on a house'. They were in Dubai on holiday!!!

I think it’s completely reasonable for younger people to point out that they cannot achieve what their parents managed to. The goalposts have completely changed and even if they stop spending on a few non essentials they are unable to get on the housing ladder unless they have substantial help from parents.

My parents worked hard, saved and bought a large 4 bed house in London in the early 1980s for about £26,000. That was no doubt a huge amount to them but back then it was completely doable even though they were working class immigrants on low wages. I grew up in an area made up mainly of West Indian, Irish and Asian working class families and home ownership was attainable for people who worked as postal workers, nurses, bricklayers etc. Yes, they didn’t spend money on takeaway coffees, days out and holidays abroad but we cannot pretend people of that generation faced the same barriers to home ownership then that young people do today.

Even if the £100 you mention above was put aside every single week (plus money spent on the occasional holiday, soft play) it could easily take a couple on an average wage 10 years or more to save for a deposit, even in a cheaper part of the country. Because bear in mind they will likely be paying rent and other expenses whilst trying to save.

To put that into perspective, it took my low income parents 2 years to put together a deposit for their £26k house which is currently worth £1.5 million.

I’m always saying, Tony Blair was the worst con man of them all; he was more subtle and cunning than billionaire Sunak telling us to “just hang in there”. As well as the above, he tried to price motorists off the road, until the truckers blocked the refineries. His government also “cracked down” on school attendance, while Blair took his children on term-time holidays in the Seychelles. He said “we’re all middle-class” - why aren’t we all holidaying in the Seychelles, then? He awarded himself a 50% pay rise in 2001. And throughout, he kept his eye on the Blair Rich Project.

I have to agree with you. I know that things are harder and houses prices have increased massively but I do also think that people have greater expectations (particularly with what are deemed essentials) - latest phones, nails done, holidays, sky, gym, beauty treatments.

I’m saying this as someone who isn’t even on the property ladder yet but I look at my colleagues who moan about having no money but eat out all the time and spend on all the above. Go figure. I’ve had to make sacrifices to save what I have so far but I do think SOME people just want everything handed to them but don’t want to make any sacrifices.

I could have written this substituting 70s and 80s for 60s. I had a conversation about it last summer with my cousin and we agreed we had no idea we were poor...everyone in our surroundings was the same. In fact we were probably better off than most.

It's true that the internet has really made comparison the thief of joy, as they say. I know people in England who still only had access to an outdoor loo in the 80s. Having a second bathroom or loo at all was relatively unheard of unless you were considered 'rich.' As was a second car or foreign holidays.

I do think this is a big part of what has caused the recent migrant exoduses from certain parts of the world. They see on social media what life can be like in other places and they want that for themselves. Many of them will fabricate situations to be considered for asylum when actually, they simply want a better, easier life with more opportunity. Who can blame them? It used to be said by tourists going to third world countries that the people 'have nothing but they seem so happy, so positive, in spite of being poor and having to work so hard for absolutely everything.' Well that was probably because they didn't have it shoved in their face every day how much easier and better things seemed somewhere else. They'd heard about it of course, got messages back from people who had managed to move to the UK, USA, Canada, Australia etc, but wasn'e a life they could visualise. Now it's literally in their faces 24 hours a day. Consequently they are still poor but rather less happy.

I remember in my grandparents house in the 70s they had an immersion heater that they would switch on and off manually a couple of times a day in readiness for washing up etc. A coal fire in the back room and an electric bar fire in the front room. Nothing in the bedrooms, we had hot water bottles! They owned their house and it was fairly large and in a pleasant street so they were not considered poor. Definitely not rich, but not poor either.

None of this stuff indicated living in 'poverty,' relative or otherwise, it was just the norm.

Yep I remember my great aunt and uncle who lived in a nice bit of our town - big 3 bed semi - they still had an outside loo and I don’t think I ever went upstairs either - they plugged irons into light socket fittings , had a coal fire, no central heating - used to wash using a tin bath in this big kitchen lounge thing ( they also had a front room with curtains shut that was never used) - this was late 60s/early 70s - they were not as far as I’m aware that poor , just very odd and very tight and I know several of their friends lived in similar circumstances - We actually did have central heating, proper amounts of sockets and decent if what would now be very dated bathrooms - it was a very mixed picture.