Ambulances Set on Fire in Suspected Anti Jewish Attack

[StartingStar]

Horrible news that ambulances run by a Jewish charity have been set on fire in Golders Green today.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwyj1p49gdpo

AIBU to feel it's got to to with the rise in anti Jewish hate since the allowance of horrible slogans on the weekly marches and in everyday society? What on earth makes people commit such a horrible attack.

I'm 100% with the Jewish community and pray for peace.

How does it make me feel better?

Indeed Germans and Japanese after the end of the second world war didn't turn into terrorists and start attacking people who they were at war with.

Why do some state that a war creates more terrorists - is that just for Islamists since it wasn't for other countries who lost millions of people in wars. I believe most people want peace and live alongside other nations. Why is Iran and Gaza not able to move forward? Why do people (often their supporters) insist that the war means more terrorists? So little in terms of expectations for them.

Do you really think that people who challenge what the Israeli government have done or are doing, what the West Bank settlers are doing to Palestinians in the name of Zionism (albeit revisionist Zionism ) are just closet antisemitists waiting for their moment?

I've explained many times that I don't think it's antisemitic to criticise the Israeli government or to criticise what the West Bank settlers are doing to Palestinians. I myself have criticised both on occasion.

There is a lot of antisemitism in society right now, though - sometimes dressed up as "anti Zionism". For example, those that seek to justify Jews or Jewish organisations in the UK being targeted because of what is happening in Gaza and the West Bank.

It would also be racist or Islamophobic to blame British Muslims for the horrible things the Iranian regime does to other countries and their own civilians.

Well a Jewish State was established the morning after the British pulled out of a deteriorating violent situation. They'd always accepted the proposed lines. That the Israeli state didn't have those exact lines is down to the fact that violence broke out immediately following the UN vote. Violence from both sides.

The tragedy the region is still dealing with is that the Arab Palestinians didn't also declare themselves a state, because they've never accepted any Jewish borders. Because they don't accept any Jewish state at all on what the extremists see as forever Dar Al-Islam. If only they had declared a state at the time, then gone to war to expand that State... I think Palestinians would be better off now. But I don't feel that failure can be blamed on Israel.

And here we still are.

Mostly agree with you on the UN.

Yes, here we are. They didn't declare a state they wanted everything. Later, Hamas wanted everything. Israel fight back when attacked. If they didn't, there would be no Israel, which some people seem to want on this site. However, Hamas, Hezbollah and The Houthis as well as The Muslim Brotherhood etc should never prosper. Things could have been different, and so much better for the ordinary citizens if their terrorist masters hadn't chosen forever hatred.

Hamas didn't commit their terrorist act and start war because of settlers or the Israeli government or any specific Israeli action. Their stated goal is to annihilate Israel and the Jewish people.

The Arab body politic was not fixated on statehood for Arab Palestinians. It was fixated on preventing Jewish Palestinian administration and sovereignty over any Muslims or Muslim land, which was and is still anathema and at the root of the conflict. The Ottoman empire - foreign Turkic overlords, but significantly Muslim overlords - ruled Jerusalem for four hundred years (1517 to 1917) without significant complaint, nationalism, movements for self-rule by Palestinan Arabs or other dissent.
And, with a significant Jewish minority population. After the defeat of the Ottomans in WW1, the potential for Jewish rule over Muslims appeared on the horizon, and that, more than anything, was not acceptable.

In a similar vein, Palestinian Arab nationalist aspirations in Gaza and the West Bank/Judea and Samaria regions only arose on the international stage after 1967 when those areas came under Jewish administration. Regardless of the desires or intentions the Arab population of those areas there was no movement from either Egypt or Jordan to recognize a Palestinian state. It is a widespread antipathy to Jewish hegemony in any area that drives the Middle East conflict.

Statehood was a western invention at that time only recently imported into the Middle East. Egypt claimed Mandate Palestine as part of Greater Egypt, Syria likewise as part of Greater Syria. There was no recognized independent Palestinian Arab nationalism accepted in the Arab world at the time. This ties into Gamal Abd El Nasser's pan-Arab movement, and the Ba'ath party of Syria and Iraq (later taken over by Saddam Hussein).

The 15 May 1948 Declaration of a Jewish state by the head of the Jewish Agency did not define any borders

They may have accepted the UN proposed lines, which gave them 55% of the land, but Arab nations had not
Despite their acceptance of the UN lines they did not include them in their declaration of the State

The war which broke out resulted in Israel having 77% of the land. Far more even than the UN proposal

Essentially
It is important to note that
The original declaration had no borders !
As such it is hardly surprising ( and I am not suggesting it is the only reason ) this free for all attitude resulted in a war

Well also worth remembering that there was literally no conclusion that wouldn't have led to a war. The surrounding nations always have wanted nothing more or less than the annihilation of all of Israel and all Jews worldwide so there's no solution - particularly at that time - that would have led to anything different.

The war which broke out resulted in Israel having 77% of the land.

It rather depends on your point of view. People often fail to remember that 80% of the original Mandate Area was detached by the British and became the Protectorate of Trans-Jordan, and eventually the Muslim Arab state of Jordan. So 80% of the land was "given to the Muslims" before we start trying to divide up the other 20% between other Muslims, and the Jews.

Then we can take a view of the proportion of agricultural land assigned in the proposed partition plan, the proportion of desert etc.

I tried to avoid giving an implication of a 'fair' partition vs. an 'unfair' partition. It is fair to say though that an agreement between Jews and Arabs was neither reached nor implemented, and a war was fought. And in summary The State of Israel exists because the Jews won that war, and not because of something the United Nations did, or a permission that anyone else gave.

I don't think it's fair to say that the surrounding nations wanted to annihilate all Jew worldwide. Jews had lived for many centuries as minorities in many Muslim Arab countries - Egypt, Morocco, Syria, Iraq - sometimes as opressed minorities and sometimes not. That changed, violently, after the formation of the State of Israel. The Jews of Iraq and Morocco were not supportive of or responsible for the conflict in Mandate Palestine but they became persona non grata after 1948 regardless.

The issue seems to be Jewish rule. Jews are acceptable as long as they accept they must never exercise authority over Muslims or Muslim land. Jews are to be tolerated. Jewish rule is not.

Very true indeed and a good reminder. I'm so caught up in the current chaos (right now listening to some students chanting From the river to the sea... outside my window at work) that I forget what it looked like in better times.

I think it should be remembered that the Quran states that Jizya should be paid though unless you convert to Islam - it still requires submission to Islam - it’s never been live and let live.

I posted because it’s important to get the facts correct
and whilst I thank you for your post it’s irrelevant to why I posted

The pp that I tagged stated

'They'd always accepted the proposed lines. That the Israeli state didn't have those exact lines is down to the fact that violence broke out immediately following the UN vote. Violence from both sides.'

This is historically and factually incorrect as their declaration of a Jewish state occurred before the war broke out
The declaration was not
'in the making' or
'still being discussed'
There was no discussion, no agreement with Arab states and no agreement on borders

Once Israel declared a state with no borders war broke out

I do agree that this is wrong:

'That the Israeli state didn't have those exact lines is down to the fact that violence broke out immediately following the UN vote. Violence from both sides.'

Violence between Arab inhabitants and Jews, and between the Jews and the British was a constant feature of the Mandate, from 1919 until 1948.

The UN vote was 29 November 1947. The British withdrew on 14 May 1948 recognizing that no agreement between Jews and Arabs was possible. The Declaration of Independence by the Jewish National Agency for Palestine and the start of the war was 15 May 1948. The war was fought by armies invading from Egypt, Jordan and Syria but that was six months after the UN voted for partition.

There was no discussion, no agreement with Arab states and no agreement on borders

It was not up to the neighbouring Arab states to agree to a Jewish state at all; it would have been up to the Palestinian Arab population represented by the Arab Higher Comittee (chaired by Hajj Amin Al Huseini and comprised of local Palestinian Arab politicians) to agree with the Palestinian Jewish population. It was not a matter of concern for Jordan, Egypt or Syria whose borders with the Mandatory area were aready well established. Nevertheless, they fought the Jews.

In an attempt to bring this thread back to OPs original point this thread has been really illustrative of how polarised views have become in recent years.

Largely as a result of social media people are fed information that already aligns with their existing views and which then through algorithms feeds them stronger and stronger reinforcement of those views. They then become completely intolerant and unable to understand a topic from another perspective.

Then something like the firebombing of four ambulances comes along that shakes those views. Now most rational people would see the arson of four life saving ambulances as a bad thing regardless of who owned them.

Now if you are of the pro Palestinian viewpoint this now creates an ideological and moral dilemma. On one hand you want to condemn it because it's a bad thing but on the other hand you don't want to be seen as being supportive of the pro Israel camp.

This inevitably leads to the yes but posts, for example "yes I condemn it but what about the burning of Palestinian ambulances " or let's shift the topic on to something completely different and broader where morally I feel more comfortable such as the wider Israeli- Palestinian conflict, so that I don't have to address the very specific topic of setting ambulances on fire or a meaningless sit on the fence view of "well both things can be bad at the same time " which is stating the obvious, adds nothing and conveniently offers no actual opinion on a solution.

See this is what I don’t get. Why would hearing someone chant ‘globalise the infatida’ make a non Muslim person hate Jews? Do these morons not have a brain? Why are innocent people in the uk to blame for a war in the Middle East because they happen to be born Jewish? Is every uk citizen responsible for the actions of whoever’s in government here?

No point in trying to understand the behaviour of sick sub humans though.

It might also be helpful to consider that the State of Syria was established in 1924, Jordan in 1946, Lebanon in 1943 and Iraq in 1932. The establisment of another new state in the middle east in 1948 (Israel) is not some kind of one-off or historic aberation.

The Jews were also subjected to institutional discrimination and violence at times as well, including multiple pogroms in the Arab world. It wasn't a case living in peace or as equals.

Agreed wholeheartedly. I would go further to say people are being radicalised via social media, and this incident is just one of many examples. There is a lot of day to day racism against Jews that doesn't make the news.

It is time that the rising surge of Anti-Semitism is tackled in this country. It's not just a danger to Jews.

Thanks to the posters who have clarified and explained the events around the creation of Israel. Fascinating.
Is it true that Jews were expelled from the Arab lands in 1948?

Im aware of the history thanks your reminder of it is irrelevant though to my post

The point of my post is very clear but I’ll word it differently

Pp claimed a border wasn’t in the Jewish declaration because
’they’d agreed it before’ and ‘the fighting broke out before they had a chance to agree it’

are making an incorrect statement. Fighting was happening before but the suggestion that Israel didn’t get a chance to agree borders because fighting / war broke out is nonsense . Israel knew a border agreement had not been met between relevant parties. War broke out after the state of Israel was declared by themselves and without a border agreement and not containing any borders within the statement.

I’m assuming most people on here would prefer to stick to the historical truth on this and all points

We can deal with each minute detail as a separate issue of fact without going on a

never ending trail of ‘other things that happened’ as these ‘other things your raise’ still don’t change the fact

that the pp post I tagged previously is historically and factually incorrect.

As you might expect, the history is complicated. Persecution of Jews increased significantly after 1948; Jews were now accused of being Zionist spies, as well as guilty of being Jews.

Recognizing that it is a thread derail, you might want to look at the Wikipedia page on this exact subject:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world

Thanks, @MyAmpleSheep .