Daughter starting nursery job, expected unpaid early starts and late finishes

[Nurserynewby12]

My daughter is looking forward to beginning a new job this week in childcare. She interviewed really well and will be studying for a qualification too. This all seems great. I work in accounts so do not know much about nursery care work but she has told me she has to start fifteen minutes early every day and will have to stay later than her finish time if parents are late or cleaning needs to be done. Both of these early and late instances will apparantly be unpaid. I do not know about nursery things much but did think this is unpaid work and not legal? Is there different rules for nurseries? I think if this happens all time she is being exploited whether she gets a qualification or not? She does not know as she is new to this area of work. I want to protect her from being exploited but need views from childcare/employment lawyers? Anyone around from employment law or a nursery manager to advise?

If the parents are late they are sanctioned, that money at least should go to the staff

Yes this happened at a well known toiletry store l worked at just before l started there. They historically always had to be on the shop floor 10 mins before opening and their working hours started and then 10 mins after shop shut to clear up etc.
Someone reported them anonymously and they were made to back pay all staff affected.
A couple of very long term staff got thousands in back pay and everyone got all their extra 1hr 40mins per week calculated and back paid from when they started.
By the time l started there you only had to be on the shop floor by your start time and finished at closing and one member of staff was rota'd each day to start 15 mins early and another to finish 15 mins later (paid now obviously).
I would strongly advice ,if your daughter wants to work there, to gather any proof she can of these extra 'slave' hours, pics/whatever/ any notes /or maybe it's in contract/induction notes. Then wait till has worked there a while so it's not obvious it's her, then report anonymously. Obviously shouldn't have to be so cloak and dagger but she will get her card marked and may struggle to progress in her role or even the next potential employer. It sucks but still goes on

Nursery usually do charge a fee for parents if they are late so i will expect them to pay the worker who has to stay late because of the parent.

I think if the kids hours are 8-4 then you would expect to be there slightly earlier and leave slightly later than them.
Most people arrive to work at least 10mins before their shift.

However, if it’s expected the nursery should be paying you to do this, especially staying late.

If she has no work experience then I’d be reluctant to turn down the job completely as I think the experience will be good for her.

As you need to pick her up then if I was her I would be telling them they I needed to leave by X time due to transport and the hours stated in the job role were x-y, which is why she applied.

I think sometimes doing over your hours is pretty standard in most places, however the job saying it’s expected before she’s even begun is a big red flag.

On the plus side, youth unemployment is high at the moment and your daughter has got a job with training. Encourage her to show up and get on with it and she can look for something else whilst she's there if she's not happy with the conditions. She will then have the advantage of work experience on her CV.

But don't feed into her dissatifaction before she's even started as it will knock her self esteem. I worked in nurseries for a few years when DD was younger because I could get hours that suited me and, despite management often - not always - being poor, I enjoyed working with the children. There's a lot of job satisfaction to be had from nurturing and educating them.

We don’t do this at the nursery I work at,just write your hours on the time sheet but we never get full holiday pay!

Typical of private nurseries.

I've seen you've said she's under 21. If you are in the UK, adult is 18. I6 year olds have choices.

I worked in spas for years. If my shift started at 10 my first client was booked at 10. If I didn’t arrive a little early I wouldn’t be set up. I was well into my thirties before I found a job that paid the extra set up and clean down time. Maybe I should have stood up for myself but that was how it was done everywhere.

Maybe you should let your daughter fight this and not do it for her.

I very much doubt the worker seeing a penny of that feeling!

This seems like an incredibly hasty and poorly thought out reaction.

They probably told your daughter to arrive approximately 15 minutes early to drop her bag, take off her coat go to the toilet in readiness to start on time. They dont pay you to do those tasks on their time and this is perfectly normal in every job and is just good personal practice.

As for staying back late each day I would be very surprised if this actually occurred. They would of just been pre warning her that occasionally a parent may be late and you are expected to stay and provide care. With the fees that nursery charge for late pick up if would be highly unlikely that this happens regularly.

Give your daughter a chance to find out properly for herself and then assess.

How does your daughter feel about you getting this involved? You might be right, but I think it’s more important to allow her to spread her wings with a first job and apprenticeship than to be right. Tell her what you think, tell her you’ll be supportive if it is unfair and she wants to fight it or quit, but don’t go in all guns blazing before you even know the situation and if she might prefer to get the experience than to take on a workplace rights battle.

Agree. To put this in perspective, allowing for say four weeks holiday. at a standard 37 hours a week they’re getting around three and a half weeks work per year for free.

I agree that the "15 minutes early" may just be the nursery management telling the new employee that they need to be fully ready (as you say, coat off, been to the loo, hands washed etc ie actually ready to work) at start time. Young people don't always understand this because schools often haven't taught it - lessons don't begin on time because students haven't been trained to be properly ready to begin to be taught.

Of course it’s illegal and it’s only the norm in chains/independents run badly and with no regard for the law. Decent chains pay for staff to get in early to set up and for time at the end of shift to prepare for the next day.

It’s absolutely standard for nurseries. Nurseries are running on the edge of collapse since funding so it would be interesting to see what would happen if everyone decided to challenge this.

“AutumnClouds · Today 06:49
How does your daughter feel about you getting this involved? You might be right, but I think it’s more important to allow her to spread her wings with a first job and apprenticeship than to be right. Tell her what you think, tell her you’ll be supportive if it is unfair and she wants to fight it or quit, but don’t go in all guns blazing before you even know the situation and if she might prefer to get the experience than to take on a workplace rights battle.”

Absolutely this with bells on. If this career is of interest to your DD, why on earth would you bulldoze through her opportunity to take this job and learn everything that she can? I don’t think you’re doing her any favours by getting riled up in this manner. She is interested in working with children. She wants this job. You don’t need to act now. Let her take the job and do the role for a bit and see how it goes.

I think the suggestion to get there before work time is more a reminder you have to be ready to start work at that time not turn up at that time. If a parent is late you have no choice but to stay but it evens out if you can go home early if all the children have.

When I was a nurse, we had to be there at least 15mins early for handover, I hardly ever had a break and would often leave two hours after my finish time. None of it was paid.

That will go well for your daughter's career. Her mother reporting her new employer. Honestly you're mad. It's a few extra minutes of unpaid work and shows willing to do a good job.

The staff in my daughter's nursery work shifts, there are always people in about half an hour before opening and I would imagine they are paid for it. My sister works in early years and was - they all work I think it's 3 shift patterns so sometimes in earlier and sometimes in later. But always paid for that. If your daughter is expected to do 30 mins free, 5 days a week, is she working the full opening time every single day? On average 8-6? Because that would also be highly unusual.

In short, she shouldn't be working for free. You can go into your job two minutes before starting as long as you're ready to work at your start time. If she's expected to start at say 7.45am, then she should be paid from 7.45am.

My 1st job, many years ago, was a management trainee with Sainsburys. We were expected to work 50 to 60 hours a week. Our salary was based on 40 hours. We were paid some overtime, but regularly worked 10 hours unpaid every week. Loved the job, but after 6 years, and then a store manager, I had enough and moved on. When we started our own retail business, I was always insistent that our staff were paid, or received time off in lieu for any overtime worked. Their choice whether they had the money or the time. It really bred resentment, especially at that time the company was expanding and announcing record profits every year. Record profits, by not paying the 100s of junior managers.

I worked in a school for 4 years, I was due to start on the hour say, but I HAD to be there at least 10 mins before, and I wasn't allowed to leave untill all the children were back with the correct teachers/rooms after. If 1 child refused to put shoes on or leave the sports hall I was there until someone came to take over (rarely happened) or until I managed to get them back into the room... Once I was there for over an hour. It seems it's expected when working with children.

Childcare is an awful industry to get into. It’s obviously a very much needed role and good practitioners are like gold dust but the working conditions are poor, pretty much universally. The good news is this nursery aren’t treating her particularly badly, the bad news is you will find poor working conditions at most of them.

Long hours
Short breaks
Strict rules - you have to lock your phone away for safeguarding etc
Crap pay
No sick pay
Rubbish pension
Usually minimum AL
Run as businesses so often cutting legal ratios to the wire which means pressure to not be off sick

It’s terrible - we trust our most precious things in the world with these people and they are not compensated properly at all.

Yes unfortunately it is normal. I worked in a min wage job and we only got payed the hours we were open but you had to get there 15 min before to be ready to open ditto close. I know TA’s that are expected to commit to running an after school club one day a week for no extra money.
I work in customer service now and we close at 4 and I stop getting paid at 4 even though I have to lock the building up which takes around 10 min for two of us. The other week my manager reprimanded me for being 2 minutes late (due to roadworks) to start work