Daughter starting nursery job, expected unpaid early starts and late finishes

[Nurserynewby12]

My daughter is looking forward to beginning a new job this week in childcare. She interviewed really well and will be studying for a qualification too. This all seems great. I work in accounts so do not know much about nursery care work but she has told me she has to start fifteen minutes early every day and will have to stay later than her finish time if parents are late or cleaning needs to be done. Both of these early and late instances will apparantly be unpaid. I do not know about nursery things much but did think this is unpaid work and not legal? Is there different rules for nurseries? I think if this happens all time she is being exploited whether she gets a qualification or not? She does not know as she is new to this area of work. I want to protect her from being exploited but need views from childcare/employment lawyers? Anyone around from employment law or a nursery manager to advise?

Don't do it!
Get to work on time and leave the children with a teacher after school. Don't do residentials.
These places rely on people being willing to work for free, but don't do it and resent it.

Why do you do all this unpaid work?! You really don't have to.
I've been a TA, I know exactly what it's like.

If it's necessary to do your job, then it needs to be done during paid time, or is paid as overtime if the TA is willing and able to work later.

As for the residential week, is it in your contract that you HAVE to go? At my last school it was voluntary. I never went because I also ran my own Pilates classes and wouldn't miss those. Other TAs didn't go because they had young children to look after, as you do.

Unfortunately many of us do jobs like TA because we enjoy helping kids. It really angers me that that wish to help is exploited by expecting unpaid work from very low paid and dedicated staff.

Busy bees nursery have just been in trouble for this very thing.

Arriving 15 minutes before actual start time is normal in any job - if your start time is 9:00 then arriving at 8:45 to have time to hang up your coat and have a wee and make sure everything is in place to get started is basic professionalism. No one is working at full efficiency the moment they walk in through the door.

Staying late is different. A few minutes is ok occasionally. If she is being expected to stay late so long and so often that her real salary falls below minimum wage for the actual hours worked then that is illegal. If the nursery charge parents an additional fee if they are late collecting and then don't pass that on in overtime payments that is highly unethical.

Hanging up your coat and signing in takes 5 minutes not 15.

If minimum wage staff need to be in 15 minutes early to set up the room or open up the building they should be paid.

Maybe she should rethink her choice of nursery work as a career. Unfortunately, nursery workers are poorly paid and often work under the conditions you describe.

You can complain to OFSTED also.

Is she expected to actually work or to arrive 15 mins before so she is there ready to start at 8am on the dot?

but then why not pay all workers from the moment they clock in rather than at from 9am ?

as your still at work, in theory that should still count as part of the job and being paid accordingly for it.

why do jobs eg want you early but yet dont want to pay for that time ? as strictly speaking your at work even if your getting ready eg coat, cuppa, etc

So one solution would be for the workers to get together so they could negotiate with their employers from a position of strength rather than being picked off one by one…. I think that might have been called a union…. But we didn’t like the nasty unions wielding sooo much power.

I have worked in nursery, primary and secondary education. All of these roles it was expected to be ‘on the floor’ waiting for the children 10 minutes before your start time. That’s just how it is , you are there to welcome the children 🤷‍♀️ what do you want her to do if she finishes at 6 and a parent turns up at 6.05 , just leave the child? I have worked in childcare and hospitality for 30 plus years and it was just what we did . If you don’t want your daughter to work there , fair enough. But let the other employees report if if they want to , I’m sure they would rather have a job then the nursery shut down by hmrc 🤷‍♀️

Being there before start time is pretty standard, you need to be there, ready to work when the doors open and the kids start arriving…have they actually said her official start time is 15 minutes before opening or just that she needs to be there and ready and suggested that 15 minutes before opening as a ballpark. My youngest is a nursery and the staff are usually in before the doors open and they’re usually just stood around chatting g waiting for the kids when the doors open…except for the odd one who will run across the car park just before the doors open.

For the end of the day, obviously if they still have kids that haven’t been picked up they can’t just leave them. At my son’s nursery the staff can leave as soon as the kids in their room have been picked up and their room is tidied. Generally they’ll move the last couple of kids to a small carpet area and one of them will Be tidying up whilst the other entertains the kids and they’ll have coats on and out of the door as soon as the last kid is picked up. One of the rooms at my sons nursery the
staff have usually already left when I pick my son up for the other room 15 minutes before closing on one of his nursery days as all the kids have gone home already. It’s swings and roundabouts, they might be a few minutes late off sometimes or they might get away early some days depending on pick up times.

Why don’t you give her a chance to start and actually see what the set up is and how it works? She can always quiet if you think it’s not right for her/ you think she’s being exploited.

I would discuss your concerns with her, but let her still start if she wants to as she is really looking forward to it. I'd suggest a time limit - 6 months? - on when to review as to whether she/you feel she's being taken advantage of.

Is she 18+?

Customer facing is very different to office based, but with good management liabilities are not taken.

Sadly this is common in childcare/education. I left a nursery job because they kept 'asking' us to stay after our shifts because they were short-staffed.

Lots of normal things are illegal. If the extra time takes her below minimum wage it’s illegal, normal or not.

Unfortunately I agree with others that this is common practice.

some of it may be intentional cost-cutting measures, as running a nursery is a high-cost business to run and margins can be tight. I believe this is why so many of them often do employ very young girls, because they are cheap due to their age.

On the flip side, the 15 minutes early thing can be common in a lot of places and it just means, as a pp said, be on the premises, jacket off, bag stored, hands washed, ready to start on your starting time.

ie if the nursery opens and kids are being dropped off at 8am, your daughter can’t also be arriving at 8. She needs to be there and ready by 8.

Staying late - not sure. There should hopefully be a lot of cleaning going on, so surely not crammed into the final 15 minutes. Maybe they all stop childcare and start cleaning as soon as kids start leaving for the day and numbers allow and one person stays with the final kids and they have to be prepared for a parent being late?

I think you just need to wait and see what it’s like when she starts. You get good nurseries and bad nurseries, and I think you will be able to tell which it is based on the training she receives and how much support she gets towards the qualification.

Good nurseries hold onto and develop staff. Bad nurseries have a high turnover of young, unqualified girls.

I’m amazed you’re encouraging her to turn down the job AND planning to report them to HMRC when she hasn’t even started, so you’ve no idea if this is actually a real or regular experience for the staff.

I used to work for HMRC.That's definately illegal.

She could work there, make sure she documents the hours she actually works, and then claim the pay for the overtime after she moves on to another job. Would probably make for a tidy sum after a few years and doesn't jeopardise her job while she's there.

Sounds like they're a poor employer and there will probably be other ways they exploit her, but if she's keen on nursery work, I think most nurseries (and a large percentage of MW employers) treat staff badly, especially those at the bottom of the ladder.

Unless they want to pay her for the 15 minutes early, then no, they cannot dictate when she gets there. She needs to be ready to start her shift at the time, so it’s it is 9am, she can’t be still hanging up her bags, but in the room or wherever ready to start. She can’t turn up at 8:55 and be ready for 9.

I do get that sometimes it’s hard to just leave exactly on time, especially if parents are late. But no way should tidying still be done.

It sounds like a very unhealthy place to work.

It is very common in nurseries. Doesn't make it legal.
Staff need to be Iin early, not to 'hang up coats and have a coffee' as many people are suggesting, but to actually get then rooms ready for the children.
They need to set up the messy activities, get breakfast ready, replace cushions in the cosy corner after the cleaners have hoovered the previous night, set up role play area etc.
You can't have staff and children arrive at the same time, I'm pretty sure parents wouldn't like it if children were dropped off into an empty room with no activities to do.
But, this should be paid for. It rarely is.

Evenings are usually not so much of a problem, most staff get out exactly on time most days. If 1 parent is late occasionally, then 2 staff will have to stay. Most places have a rota for this, and where I work it usually ends up with each person staying 5-10 mins late once every few months.

Private nurseries for you. Many will pull lots of things to get out of paying you. It’s been a long time for me but from what i can gather many nurseries are crap to work for. Of course some will be amazing but that’s probably the exception. I did see a reel or tik tok from a lady .. i think she worked in a legal capacity. Advising people many employers are working illegally to get staff to come in early, and other things which took them under minimum wage as they should be paid.

Back in my nursery nursing days 20+ years ago:
We had to be in the building a 15 minutes before but didn’t have to be in the ‘room’ you were working.
Any late fees went to staff that stayed eventually.
We were expected to attend training like first aid or basic food hygiene on a weekend with no extra pay
Expected to run open days, saturday fun days etc. No extra pay
Stay behind after work for meetings. Again not paid,
I took monthly planning and rotas home as no time to do in work. I was a room leader of three rooms and earning £5 an hour in 2003 when i left.
Working with minimal qualified staff as level 2 staff were cheaper and ‘in training’ but still had keyworker responsibilities. Some were terrible, didn’t want to work just were there as it was an easy job to get into some money and sit and chat. This put pressure on the qualifieds tbh and was a poor decision from governments.

There’s a reason why there are so many practitioner vacancies or apprenticeships available in nurseries! Really tough job and badly treated staff.