Daughter starting nursery job, expected unpaid early starts and late finishes

[Nurserynewby12]

My daughter is looking forward to beginning a new job this week in childcare. She interviewed really well and will be studying for a qualification too. This all seems great. I work in accounts so do not know much about nursery care work but she has told me she has to start fifteen minutes early every day and will have to stay later than her finish time if parents are late or cleaning needs to be done. Both of these early and late instances will apparantly be unpaid. I do not know about nursery things much but did think this is unpaid work and not legal? Is there different rules for nurseries? I think if this happens all time she is being exploited whether she gets a qualification or not? She does not know as she is new to this area of work. I want to protect her from being exploited but need views from childcare/employment lawyers? Anyone around from employment law or a nursery manager to advise?

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it so far, sorry if they have, but HMRC have just released a list of 400 companies including some very big names including Busy Bees nursery chain who owe staff thousands in back pay for this kind of pay evasion.

Exactly !!!
imagine working in the NHS - start at 7.30 am say, and you walk through the door at 7.30 am

nope, need to be on site in time to hit the ground running at 7.30 am

and leaving on time ?? Nope, not if you are in middle of clincal work, still handing over etc etc

best you’d expect would be TOIL - but public facing roles come with a culture / need to be able to not just clock on / off - it will depend on what’s required at the time and you need to have that flex

Totally agree, ypur dd is probably so happy she has got herself a job and you’re putting a huge damper on it all and she hasn’t even started. If she is starting work then you need to take a step back and let her stand up for herself. She will soon work it out.

For those saying it's normal, yes it is if you are salaried and paid over minimum wage, and your choice whether you accept it or not.

If it takes you under minimum wage it's illegal.

This boils my blood. If your business only works because you’re taking advantage of people who are too scared to say or don’t know any better, then you don’t have a working business.

complain and report to the relevant authorities. Hopefully they’ll get a fine that removes any saving.

I've worked in nurseries a lot of years.
I worked for one private nursery for 2 years.
Yes, you had to start 15 mins before your shift for setting up your room and breakfast areas.
Yes, you didn't get paid for this.
You also had to stay behind if a child's parent was late and no, you were never given any of the fine money.
You were also told you had to attend staff meetings out of hours - unpaid.
You were to attend fundraisers at weekends - unpaid.
I gradually became so annoyed with the situation that I left. Followed by many others. But not before I was made to feel completely unreasonable for expecting to be paid for my time.
I do believe that nurseries are in trouble due to funding.
However, the owner of my nursery was driving the newest plate of a Mercedes benz and had just bought a 600,000 quid house so they were making money.
When you work a low wage in a caring profession, you very often get treated poorly and as if your time is unimportant and you should be grateful you have a job.

I had 1 nursery role in didn't stay in very long where you had set hours ue 7.30-430 8-5 etc but there was never any contingency so we had children booked in 8-6 so could arrive anytime between 8 and leave by 6 and they just hoped just the ratio of that 1 staff would arrive/leave inthay time. Ie if you started at 8am in preschool we hoped you didn't get 9 of them in before the next starter arrived and so on. We had 1 shift pattern which was 930 am and we were always over ratio for that 9-930 period and the same going home ie finish at 4.30 but unless 8 children had left or whatever age ratio you weew in you were stuck until you were relieved of your ratio.

"I find your reaction so bizarre. It's normal to turn up to work 15 min early and leave later if you're public facing."

If it takes you below minimum wage it is illegal.

Agree. It's inconceivable my mother would have stepped in to complain to my employer when I was a fully grown adult of 21. She would never have overstepped or embarrassed me in that way thank goodness.

OP your daughter is 21. If she has a problem with her new job she must sort it out herself or learn how to complain to someone who can assist. And that is not her mum.

Came on here as an NHS worker and so glad someone got here first 😂

I think it’s likely that this is illegal, but your DD needs to look at the bigger picture - will this get her the qualification and the work experience on her CV that will enable her to move to another company/nursery as soon as she has the right pieces of paper? If so I’d be inclined to suck it up in the short term - as her colleagues are doing - but perhaps join the relevant union and then think about kicking up a fuss.

Her goal is qualifications and work experience - she would risk that if she kicked up a stink at this stage. And yes, I know this both feels wrong and IS wrong, but she needs to keep her eye on the prize, so to speak, then fight it or move to a different nursery.

This seems very normal to me and not specific in any way to childcare, I’ve never worked in a childcare or healthcare role but have always been expected to be at my workplace ready to start work by the start time which necessitates arriving before your start time. When I was working in call centres if you weren’t scanned into the building 5 mins before your start time the you were late and the first 15 mins pay was docked.

Not an Ofsted issue at all. They don't cover employment disputes.

My dd had a few issues with her previous employer, I would have loved to have words with her colleague but instead I helped her confidence to enable her stand up to him and go above his head to report him.

we need to teach our children to become more self sufficient and confident to deal with these situations themselves.

Are you talking about staff on minimum wage?

Busy Bees was recently fined and made to pay staff £££ all the back pay owed.
Some of these nursery chains are making huge profits by the way.

I think the nursery situation is very different though. It’s one thing to be expected to be coat off, bag stowed, any toileting done and ready to start work at the appointed time. It’s quite another to be expected to come in fifteen minutes early every day to set up your workplace ready for start of business and be expected to stay late to accommodate parents who turn up late, without any remuneration at all.

Staff are actually working during these times and to my mind either the start and finish times should be set to accommodate these needs and paid accordingly, or flexible working allowed so that the extra time worked can be saved and taken as paid time off.

In effect the nursery owners are building these terms into their business model and basically bullying staff to make it work. Based on a 37 hour working week with say four weeks holiday allowance, an extra two and a half hours a week adds up to around three and a half weeks unpaid work every year.

I think OP is absolutely right to challenge it, but l agree her all guns blazing approach isn’t appropriate. Much better for her DD to start work and gather evidence of unfair practices before wading in.

Nothing to do with her age, this is just what some nurseries are like. in my last role I started 10 minutes early to set up for the children (and it was unpaid). Finishing late if parents are late is understandable, you can't just leave them there but really there should be a cleaner.
Are they actually cleaning after their shift or just tidying up? If it's tidying up we tended to do that around 10! minutes before the end of the day while another staff member sat with the children reading or doing puzzles or something that was easy to tidy at the end of the day. It might be the same where your daughter works.

Yes, surely no one just turns into work bang on their start time? That would make them late to actually start.
Staying late regularly is a different matter,on minimum wage. If it's a regular occurance I suppose someone should be rostered in for that.
If not, I find it bizarre that the manager isn't the one who takes on that responsibility. Unless regulations say they can't be alone?
You'll get a shock if she ever works in the NHS OP. Working free is very much the norm, and a lot more than 30 mins a day.

So basically the OPs daughter needs to start her new job with the intention of acting almost like an industrial spy and recording occasions where she had to put a bit of extra time in. And then report her new employers to HMRC. I mean, it's an idea. Whether they would want to keep her long term would be interesting. Luckily the jobs market for young people is booming at the moment so it will be easy to get new job.

I have experience of the 15 minute catch. A well known high retailer I worked for some years ago. I arrived early but that was purely to avoid traffic and get a parking place. I put up with this for 5 years. But as other have stated people still turn up at a minute before start time and get away with it.
I would not bother with HMRC and got straight to ACAS.

But there’s a difference between being expected to be at your workplace and ready to start on time, and being expected to actually work for fifteen minutes unpaid every day setting up the actual workspace. I have a relative who works for the NHS and to put it mildly, they’re not the best of employers in many respects. Working free may be an expectation but it doesn’t make it right.

I.worked in nurseries for years and it is the norm. Some are better than others.

I dont suggest she starts a new job by causing 'trouble". It is the way it is in this line of work.

I have worked in childcare for
ovef 30 years . I have always started early and finished later than I am paid for, but as my choice. Unfortunately it is not possible to do what I needed to do within the paid hours, particularly true when I have worked as a TA
i now own a nursery. I don’t expect my staff to be there early or stay late, unpaid.
However, most of my staff arrive a few minutes earlier and some staff up
to half an hour extra by choice.
in return if people want to go and watch their children at school in nativities etc then they can and don’t loose pay, I don’t cut pay for medical appointments or child medical
appointments or the odd occasion where people need to finish 10
mins early for whatever reason.
we work on a bit of give and take.
unfortunately it does seem that the childcare profession is exploiting young people on minimum wage and expecting all sorts of free time to be given up.
My sister and mum both teach and the extra work they do for free is also ridiculous.
I am waiting for the day (still) when childcare is valued for what it is, we need proper qualifications and a proper wage and we need to be recognised for the importance of our job.
I love my job and the children I care for are amazing and every day is different but it’s physically and mentally demanding and the responsibility often keeps
me awake at night.
I would suggest your daughter asks about the unpaid time or looks elsewhere, there are many jobs in the sector at the moment.
i wish her well in her career and I hope it brings her as much laughter and pleasure as it has me.