Please help family and rent

[limeandwater]

Lurker of ten years plus, and looking for some anonymous and honest feedback.

Approx 5 years ago sister split from husband. On the surface they lived a very nice life, but long story short her ex had mortgaged everything against his business and they lost the lot and were left with nothing.

My husband and I are fortunate enough to have a number of properties. We let her and her two kids stay in one of our houses and used words to the affect "it's yours rent free for as long as you need it."

She met a man approx two years ago who we like and is good to her and the kids and 3 months ago she asked if he could move in. We said yes - but presumed rent would follow.

To give you some non specific info the man in question earns approx 60k per year and rents out the flat he was living in for £1600pcm which I imagine would more than cover his mortgage. They live a nice life if that matters. Holidays, meals out, etc.

We are in South East and the 3 bed house she lives in would rent at approx £2800 per month. My husband thinks its cheeky that no offer of rent has been made. He doesn't want or expect market value - and in fact would probably only want about half.

I agree with him, it's a bit cheeky, but then think back to our wording 5 years ago.

My husband is a lovely man and never gets angry, but last Sunday we went out for Sunday lunch and we split the bill. I could tell tell he was annoyed and asked him what was wrong - and he stated "he lives rent free in our property, he could have got lunch."

Who is right and what do we do?

Perfect time to restructure then. You’re doing it across all your properties. Nothing personal but it needs to start paying.

Well, your piss-taking sister and her cocklodger boyfriend are now causing issues between you and your husband. So I guess it's finally come to the bit.

Best of luck with the talk this alvo. Don't let them emotionally blackmail you. Be strong! Lie back and think of the market.

You've done a really lovely thing for your sister and removed a burden from her shoulders when she needed it most, but perhaps if your husband is beginning to feel resentment it is time to reassess the situation.

I would just be mindful that from your sister's perspective, your situation hasn't actually changed. Her partner being there doesn't mean you're worse off. You weren't getting any money before and you're not getting any money now, so she may not really see why there is a problem and why her new happiness with her partner needs to change her current arrangement.

I'm not saying that I fully agree with that view point, just that if she is resistant to the change, it might not be disrespect, just a different perspective.

Give them notice. That man has no pride. Cheeky fuckers.

Except... OP always siad her sister could live rent free for as long as she likes. So...

Admittedly, if OP thought that her sister was goign to get on her feet and start payin rent, she may already be thinking her sister is taking the piss, even without the boyfriend moving in, but that's not what has been mentioned on this thread.

And for the record, I 100% with OP's DH that at the very least, you should never have to pay for a meal or a drink when you are out with them, ever again!

I’m not surprised your dh was angry. However you should have really adjusted the rent as he moved in. Definitely a conversation needs to be had. I think you have both been a bit too nice.

Does he know that your sister is paying no rent to you? Does he even know that its your place and not hers?

Wouldn't be shocked if he is paying her money for rent and she is pocketing it.

Could you not use the change in rental rules as a way to approach this. As you can't claim any expenses for a house you're not receiving income for you're actually paying for your sister to live there.

frankly "you need to use your words" is what needs to be said to them. SO as things are clearly on a much better footing financially it would not be out of order to write to them if you are not good at face to face and say politely that the property was let to x on the basis of her financial need when she left her partner. As things are now much improved and y has also joined her in the property that rent is now due. The full rent would be but as a family member you are happy to rent for a for the period of 1 year reviewable annually. I would also get it onto a proper lease as otherwise if you ever need them to move out it will cause issues

Have also just realized that he has his own flat which he rents out while living rent free in your property so is effectively making a profit on his property through yours and DH's generosity with your property. I would give them a year max on half rent to help facilitate. them buying their own property. They could sell the flat and use the equity which they likely have by now as a deposit on a place of their own
I still can't get over them allowing you to pay for your own lunch. It's often the little things that are the final straw. 💐

I am meeting her for a coffee at at 12.30.

“We said yes - but presumed rent would follow.”

This was your mistake- it should have been agreed upfront.

Don’t let it go on any longer, ask for at least 50% (ie free for your sister to help her out, not free for him who earns decent money as well as having rental income). What a CF.

They are taking the piss. I think you've been a bit silly letting them have it "free for as long as they need it". You should have put a deadline on that so they can save for a deposit or something. No incentive for her otherwise is there?

You offered it on the basis of rent free; for a long as your sister needs it. You probably took her low income plus wanting to offer stability at a difficult time into a country when making this offer.

Your sisterw household income has changed significantly; so its right to now review the extent to which she needs a rent free space.

Your sister may however feel that you are in a fortunate position with multiple properties; and may feel that she still has need of the current set up; particularly as she might not want to move the children. A new agreement where she pays some rent is probably the best way forward.

I think even your sister is taking the piss! Yes you said yours as long as you like, but in reality these things don’t mean forever, it’s just a way of saying it’s yours till you’re back on your feet. She can’t reasonably expect to love there forever rent free and if she dord she’s totally selfish ,

now the boyfriend is moving in there’s no way I’d accept no rent especially when he’s charging to rent his own home out! Total piss take

I wouldn't have presumed anything - I would have spoken to him and your sister about paying a reasonable rent. Surely as the owners it's your responsibility to set the rent for him if he is moving in?

Rather than simmering with resentment, you need to have a conversation with him about paying rent, or moving out.

I would make it less personal, and couch things in terms of you and dh doing a financial health check/overhaul, and you need to ask dsis to start paying rent. This prevents any discussion of the boyfriend and what he earns/pays, and also overrides the previous free rent. It’s just changing times/circumstances.

I would mention that the rent “has been valued” at £3k or whatever, and see what she says. Obviously you can negotiate down, but she needs to know how generous you have been and how it would be thoroughly unfair to continue this.

I used to hate reading drip feed posts - but different when it's you.

If it is at all relevant, my sister is aware that the rental income due to a little hard work and good fortune on my Husband and I's part wouldn't make any difference to our lives.

So far it's cost you circa £150k!!

That’s irrelevant really, it’s not to do with whether or not you could do with the money.

I’m completely with your husband. Living in your property free of charge, not short of money but still expecting you to pay half the lunch bill is outrageous.

OP is basically saying they have more money than they need by a long long way.

But it’s a principle point.

Silly man. That’s the most expensive couple of hundred quid he never spent 😬

Glad to hear you're going to talk about it properly, finally! Way too much presumption and assumption and then feeling peed off in secret while saying nothing. What you actually said was she could live there rent free with no time limit and then when she asked if this guy could move in, you didn't take the very obvious chance to say "yes but that changes things so the rent will now be xyz".

You said nothing and just thought it would happen. But you'd acted like you were fine with it and didn't want any changes. Honestly, the lack of comms is loopy. She's not to know what you want if you don't say it. So say it clearly today and stop relying on mindreading. You've been kind but it's okay to change the set-up seeing as there's someone who can afford the rent there now.

I don’t know if this will help but I have a friend who hasn’t got much cash. She knows I am very comfortably off. However she is never willing to let me pay for stuff even though I am because it gets in the way of relationships and can lead to resentment.

Now while it’s completely understandable that you helped your sister out when she was on her knees, she should recognise that her situation has changed and remedy things. Your financial situation has nothing to do with it. Even if I had a friend who was a billionaire I’d still buy them lunch or a coffee occasionally. Otherwise I’m just taking the piss.

When you were asked if this man could move in, that was the time to say 'Not a problem, we have been happy to help, but we will now expect x rent to be paid monthly, now there's an extra adult living in the property'. You should have then had a contract drawn up, and signed to state this.

It's entirely possible this man is paying your sister rent???? She's then pocketing the rent money he's paying her, and not passing any onto you!!

You need to speak to them both. If the above scenario is happening, he might not be best pleased to find out he's paying your sister rent, yet she's not paying you any!! He needs to be aware how much rent he's required to pay towards the property, as does your sister! Get a contract drawn up, make it legally binding.

I think your sister has taken huge advantage of your kindness and her partner is a freeloader. You have been a bit silly to have let this situation drag on and cause bad feeling.

Propose a proper rent or suggest they move on now. Don't offer a reduced / kind rent as this will again cause further bad feeling down the line.