To be relieved with the House of Lords decision?

[InASubmarine]

I have just seen on the news that the House of Lords have approved the bid to decriminalise abortion. I am so relieved. I can’t believe in a supposed modern society women are still subject to Victorian laws on their own body.

i wish they had gone one step further and enshrined a woman’s legal right to an abortion to help add protections if Nigel and his gang of loons get in and try to pull what they did in America.

But overall I see this as such a win for women everywhere and a welcome change that will remove fear from lots of lives!

Aibu to feel this way? It’s a scary world as a woman at the moment!

Even when an abortion is not necessary because the woman is miscarrying anyway. Some have been forced to bleed out in the car park because medical staff don't dare render assistance lest they be prosecuted.

Totally agree.

My late mother was a nurse in the early 1950's. She saw the consequences of desperate women driven to illegal, backstreet abortions. They were sometimes fatal.

You can make the argument that pregnancy isn't "forced" it's a natural bodily process that occurs and the end result to what happens after sperm meets egg.

The same reason if you eat food you're not "forced" to defecate after, it's the natural consequence.

Glad you agree on the second part. I wish we could discuss the issue from both sides and not descend into horrible name calling.

I agree

Exactly.

I prefer not to name call either, but you are being offensively disingenuous when you say that pregnancy is not forced.

Aside from a rape situation, where pregnancy manifestly is forced because without that violent act there would be no sperm meets egg, you can't argue logical consequences when a woman has done everything possible to not conveive - because failsafe contraception does not exist.

You can't argue 'well, just don't have sex then' when someone is in a marriage or long term relationship, because sex is a key part of that. You have but to look at the relationship boards to see what happens to a relationship when the sex part of it dies. So what are you going to do when there is a long term committed relationship, no desire for children and sex happens?

Aside from the lack of fully failsafe contraception, it is often the case that one partner (the man) refuses to have a vasectomy - and because we allow people bodily autonomy, he is allowed to do that. At the same time it is almost impossible for a woman of childbearing age to be allowed sterilisation, because the medical establishment tells her no - in case she changes her mind. So we have a situation where men are allowed to refuse a vasectomy (rightly) because bodily autonomy, but women are not allowed to choose sterilisation - which is failsafe contraception.

Lastly, you are adeptly swerving the issue of non-viable pregnancies. I have a friend who was pregnant with a much wanted second child, but there was a genetic condition incompatible with life in the family. She had an amniocentesis and it came back positive; her much wanted baby would die at birth. She had a termination at 26 weeks (due to NHS delays). It was horrific - but less horrific than being forced to carry to term and then watch her baby die.

So you can be opposed to abortion, but there are consequences to that belief. They affect real, living women, It isn't a cute rosy picture of adorable little babies being born and living happy lives. And I find that the anti-abortion people really don't ever want to acknowledge any of that.

@pointythings I agree with your last paragraph re the realities that are often glossed over by those against. I do think however that people who are strongly in favour can be the most bigoted of all. In fact on MN there seems to be many who are not pro choice but pro abortion, ridiculing women for not terminating in less than perfect circumstances. Women who might have an issue with a much loved child are being told they should have aborted it, people minimising it saying its just a bunch of cells. I don't know many people like that in my own life but I know many who are nasty and disrespectful of those who don't agree with their views. I think those who shut down debate, on either side, are the most dangerous of all. It's ok for people to disagree but it's important to keep talking and discussing and showing respect to those whose views differ.

@Dontlletmedownbruce I must respectfully disagree, simply because those who are in favour of choice aren't out there trying to get the law changed to force women to have abortions. That is the ultimate bottom line - pro abortion to me means forcing people to have abortions, and that does not happen. You don't get protests on the street telling people they should all have abortions - but you still get plenty on the other side, shoving misleading images in people's faces. It's happened to me. I was, with some considerable effort, polite.

I have honestly never seen anyone on Mumsnet tell another poster that they should have aborted their child if that child is causing them problems, and I've been on here for 16 years.

Nobody but utter psychopaths are "pro-abortion" and so they can be suitably ignored.

Do not make the mistake that sane people who are pro-choice like abortion. The debate is simply about whether an individual woman should have control over their own body or not.

And I have to say, I don't have a lot of respect for anyone who thinks that they shouldn't, and I make no apology for that.

See? Always so deceitful.

As someone who’s been pro choice all my adult life, I couldn’t be more pleased that women making one of the most difficult decisions of their lives will no longer be labelled criminal.

Yes i agree but not at 8 months thats a full baby, thats a funeral not an abortion.
Could you / would you honestly go and do that and walk out like nothing happend.

Am I missing something? It wasn’t illegal before?

Let's just hope this doesn't generate the sort of stories that would be used to drastically repeal these laws.

But that does. Not. Happen. Look up the statistics on late term abortions. They are for situations where the baby has a condition that is incompatible with life. The data is very, very clear. Only 0.1% of abortions take place after 24 weeks, so the number taking place at 34 - 36 weeks is going to be even smaller - and will be for catastrophic medical situations.

I don't understand the anti-abortion brigade. Why do you hate women so much that you actually think they would just casually decide they don't want to be pregnant any more at 8 months?

Roughly 15 people in the US die every day waiting for a kidney. If we forced everyone to donate one, that’s 5500 people a year. Lobe of a liver, thousands more. Bone marrow. Blood. Donated eggs, semen. You could create or save thousands and thousands of people if you forced people to donate. Living breathing people.

Why not?

Strong disagree, I have seen women heavily criticised here who clearly want the child while a partner is pressuring to abort (for example) with heavy overtones of 'you shouldn't even have had the ones you have' with a relationship/financial situation.

I agree OP - amazing news and a relief

No, that's "why did you choose to get pregnant with this man?".

Also, if someone is posting on mumsnet "should I get an abortion?" clearly they are conflicted. People then give advice.

Not donating an organ is passive inaction where they die due to their underlying medical issues.

Abortion is an active termination and is a deliberate act to end another human life.

Dead is dead. You’ve decided your line is “when I’m the one risking my health and life” sorry, I mean ‘passive’ but there’s no actual reason it’s morally different. If the woman and the doctor are happy with their choices, why is your decision more important than theirs? It isn’t.

I find it very interesting to see who the people are as well. For years I was part of a nonprofit helping pregnant and parenting teenagers. We housed them in our own homes. We’d occasionally meet up with the other host families. Every single one of them was pro choice. You’d think this scheme to aid teenagers who actively wanted to parent would attract families that were pro life. It’s about babies, it’s about giving marginalised mothers a chance to do it. But no, not one. All pro choice. Almost like families that are caring and loving of young women will both offer their homes and trust them to make good decisions about their bodies. Aided by people who will help them regardless of what they decide.

The pro lifers so often stop being pro life once the baby exists.

Yes, the outcome is the same. But morality is judged by what you did.

A doctor who refuses to donate his kidney to a dying patient and lets the disease take its course. Passive. Tragic. Not murder.

The same doctor who walks into the room and injects a lethal drug into that patient? Active killing. Murder.

Abortion is the second case: a healthy child with a beating heart, brain waves, and unique DNA is deliberately poisoned, dismembered, or crushed.

If a mother and doctor were “happy” smothering a newborn because it inconvenienced her health, we wouldn’t shrug it off.

There's a whole wealth of pro-life organisations who help mothers in need. I agree it would be disingenuous to not help mothers after birth.

If a mother and doctor were “happy” smothering a newborn because it inconvenienced her health, we wouldn’t shrug it off.

This isn't the same though. Once the baby has been born it needs someone to look after it. If the mother can't or won't then someone else can. That's not the case when the mother is pregnant. She is the only option.

I genuinely am curious how this mindset works when the mother herself is being put at risk by the pregnancy. Physically or mentally. There are countless cases of women trying to have an abortion to save their own life - don’t they deserve consideration?

I’ll say that the few weeks I knew I was pregnant and had no idea how to stop being pregnant I considered all sorts - including driving my car off a bridge. Thankfully my parents found out, got me away from my abusive boyfriend and drove me to the clinic for my abortion - my dad even paid for it without a second of judgement. If they hadn’t done all that I don’t even know if I’d be here today. So no, I don’t think that ball of half abuser cells deserved more compassion than an actual living 17 year old girl.