To ask Trump supporters if they support the attack on Iran or if they feel Trump has wrongly gone back on his 'no more foreign wars' promise?

[Carla786]

YABU = Yes, I support the attack on Iran
YANBU = No,he wrongly went back on his 'no more foreign wars' promise

Personally, I can see both sides. I don't personally support Trump, but I can see why some might support the attack. Khameini and is regime are certainly loathsome and Iranians and the rest of us would be much better off without them. They certainly pose danger to Israel, US etc too.

Otoh, is there a credible political opposition who could take over? The prince could, but only as a figurehead. The Iraq war, the Libya invasion and the Afghanistan war did not end very well- how do we know this one will end any better?

My understanding was that quite a few Trump supporters saw him as a welcome change from the neocons of the Bush era who led the US into ME wars. I could be wrong about this though.

Interested to hear replies!

Pp wasn't asking whether morality can stop him, but whether what he is doing is moral. 'I'm rich and powerful so I can do what I like' isn't a coherent moral argument.

That was pp's question though. I personally think there IS a moral case for the attack, I just wonder whether it will actually have the results wanted.

Do you accept that morality still objectively matters when you're a strong country who can direct others?

I personally think there IS a moral case for what he's done, but you seem to discount morality importance entirely.

I agree the regime needed to go, the question is whether an air attack alone can dislodge. There is no precedent for that, the land invasion precedents of Iraq, Afghanistan etc did not go well, & there's no credible political opposition who can take over. I hope it will work, the future is murky.

I agree the regime needed to go, the question is whether an air attack alone can dislodge. There is no precedent for that, the land invasion precedents of Iraq, Afghanistan etc did not go well, & there's no credible political opposition who can take over. I hope it will work, the future is murky.

Yes, noted exponents of realpolitik include the famously moral Henry Kisssinger...

Politics has to include realpolitik but morality is crucial too. I think a moral case can be made for Trump' intervention, you discount morality entirely.

The question is whether it will work.

I agree the regime needed to go, the question is whether an air attack alone can dislodge. There is no precedent for that, the land invasion precedents of Iraq, Afghanistan etc did not go well, & there's no credible political opposition who can take over. I hope it will work, the future is murky.

I personally didn't think the pp was really engaging with my question. They haven't really engaged with the practical points about whether regime change will work, despite their claim to be focused on 'realpolitik'. They can carry on posting but they need to contribute better imo.

They can post. Their posts haven't really focused on the practical chances of regime change,,that's my issue

Re the girls' school that's unfair. The school was near military targets. It's awful but the school was not the direct target

I agree the regime needed to go, the question is whether an air attack alone can dislodge. There is no precedent for that, the land invasion precedents of Iraq, Afghanistan etc did not go well, & there's no credible political opposition who can take over. I hope it will work, the future is murky.

Having claimed to have "obliterated" Iran's nuclear capability previously, Trump (Chump) is now trying to hit Iran's nuclear capabilities. Big orange tosser.

I agree mainly with this.

Otoh the question is whether an air attack alone can dislodge. There is no precedent for that, the land invasion precedents of Iraq, Afghanistan etc did not go well, & there's no credible political opposition who can take over. I hope it will work, the future is murky.

I'm not sure if pp is American...

Please can we not derail this into a debate about Israel & Palestine. I'm sorry but I can see this taking over the thread & I didn't start the thread to discuss that.

Can we please not have conspiracy theories on the thread. Regrowing earlobe?

I agree the regime needed to go, the question is whether an air attack alone can dislodge. There is no precedent for that, the land invasion precedents of Iraq, Afghanistan etc did not go well, & there's no credible political opposition who can take over. I hope it will work, the future is murky.

Please can we stay off this topic. I suppprt the rights of Palestinians to a safe & free life but your post seems anti Semitic to me, worryingly so.

I agree with you on that.

Anyisemitic? Honestly, sod off. I am extremely far from being antisemitic, I have reported antisemitism on this very board and complained to MN about antisemitism on here. I would never be antisemitic. I don’t see how saying I find Hamas abhorrent is antisemitism? Saying that October 7th - which I REPEATEDLY said I thought was disgusting - wasn’t what reignited this war is not antisemitic either.

Don’t throw around dangerous accusations like that so fucking casually, what a terrible thing to do.

I agree with you. I think too much exposure to pain & grief of war on screens can make people less compassionate not more, because it's just too much.

I see what you mean about not knowing who to side with in wars over the last years. Sides are often murky in a lot of wars. Still, I'd say Putin, Xi, Kim Jong-Un and Islamist extremist leaders are the main causes of suffering of our age.

People are biased by their personal hatred of Trump.

It's something which puzzles me, because he's a foreign leader. I couldn't really care less about him, or what goes on in America; the impact to the UK by what goes on in America is largely incidental. It's exaggerated.

I certainly won't lose any sleep over the dismantling of a truly horrific regime.

How many voting Americans are on MN? Living and voting in America? It doesn't really matter what anyone thinks unless they have the right to vote for him.

There's lots of things worldwide we don't like but the people living under it do.

I do think it's interesting how unlike the US we really are dispite all bring the "West".

We don't need to like it. We need to accept that Americans in the main do like it as he was voted in. Surely that means the majority of Americans love him? Like we voted for Labour. I might not have voted for Labour, neither might you but logic says the majority did. So here we are. A lot of people thought it was a good idea at the time. Repeatedly

@Carla786I appreciate your moderate tone but it’s mn people post whatever really, within guidelines.

I don’t want just the Labour left saying fuck off to everyone else. I do actually want to hear different views.

What do you mean by does morality matter? Matter in what sense? To make you feel good? To have nice big talking shops? Like I say, to carp on the sidelines?

Sure, if that’s what morality matters means, then yes you can feel all moral and superior by thinking and having a talking shop on whatever you want.

In the end what really matters is what happens. What actually unfolds. And to influence what actually happens, you can’t bash the opponent over the head with morality. They just laugh at you. To influence powerful people to do what matters, you have to have leverage. Usually rooted in economic power. So no having a talking shop to feel all moral and superior makes no difference.

It’s how they operate. Never happier than when in an echo chamber.