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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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16
magneticclocks · 06/03/2026 09:21

OrangeAxolotyl · 06/03/2026 09:13

No. Your posts did appear to claim that there were no innocent Israeli victims, but you have since clarified your meaning.

@IcyPlumShaker didn't say that at all. What she said in the post which offended so much was what Guterres of the UN said - that Oct 7 didn't happen in a vacuum. If Guterres were here on the thread would you be all tearing into him too?

OrangeAxolotyl · 06/03/2026 09:25

magneticclocks · 06/03/2026 09:21

@IcyPlumShaker didn't say that at all. What she said in the post which offended so much was what Guterres of the UN said - that Oct 7 didn't happen in a vacuum. If Guterres were here on the thread would you be all tearing into him too?

I think those of us reading her posts are well aware of what she posted.
The issue was about "innocent victims".
She has since clarified her meaning.

magneticclocks · 06/03/2026 09:26

OrangeAxolotyl · 06/03/2026 08:56

Nobody on here has claimed that the war started on Oct 7th. It ended a ceasefire and a brokering for sure, but that's part of the long term conflict.
I think that the problem is that you appear to be saying that there are no innocent Israeli victims in this whole tragedy. That's how it comes across. This whole thread stems from the claims (not yet denied) by the Greens spokesperson in relation to the women victims.
I don't think it helps if you suggest that they weren't innocent victims, but perhaps it's just your wording.

If you read back, I think HappyFace2025 said that the war started on Oct 7. She said that Israel had left Gaza in peace from 2005 (I have corrected her that factually this was incorrect) and that the recent war started as a result of Oct 7 (I said that this was not correct either). Disclaimer: I haven't read back to find the posts so if you provide a quote to the contrary of the above, apologies, but I am pretty sure that was said.

OrangeAxolotyl · 06/03/2026 09:27

magneticclocks · 06/03/2026 09:26

If you read back, I think HappyFace2025 said that the war started on Oct 7. She said that Israel had left Gaza in peace from 2005 (I have corrected her that factually this was incorrect) and that the recent war started as a result of Oct 7 (I said that this was not correct either). Disclaimer: I haven't read back to find the posts so if you provide a quote to the contrary of the above, apologies, but I am pretty sure that was said.

If you have an issue with another poster's comments, please take it up with her.

magneticclocks · 06/03/2026 09:28

OrangeAxolotyl · 06/03/2026 09:25

I think those of us reading her posts are well aware of what she posted.
The issue was about "innocent victims".
She has since clarified her meaning.

She clarified her meaning because a group of posters were tearing into her and misrepresenting what she was saying.

OrangeAxolotyl · 06/03/2026 09:28

magneticclocks · 06/03/2026 09:28

She clarified her meaning because a group of posters were tearing into her and misrepresenting what she was saying.

No, they were responding to her posts.

Ihatetomatoes · 06/03/2026 09:29

OrangeAxolotyl · 06/03/2026 09:25

I think those of us reading her posts are well aware of what she posted.
The issue was about "innocent victims".
She has since clarified her meaning.

The icy plum one is male. I wont engage with him again after what he said.

Ihatetomatoes · 06/03/2026 09:29

magneticclocks · 06/03/2026 09:28

She clarified her meaning because a group of posters were tearing into her and misrepresenting what she was saying.

Incorrect, we knew exactly what he meant.

magneticclocks · 06/03/2026 09:30

magneticclocks · 05/03/2026 17:06

This is not great either. But I have found the magazine and the quote - the magazine is "Israel En Guerre Dossier Raids Nov - Dec 2025 and Jan 2026" and the extract is:

Le 9 octobre 2023, l'Etat hebreu impose un "siege complete" a l'enclave palestinienne. "Pas d'electricite, pas de nourriture, pas d'eau, pas de carburant [...]. Nous combattons des animaux humains et nous agissons en consequence", declare alor le ministre de la Defence israelien, Yoav Gallant

Which roughly translates as:

On October 9, 2023, the State of Israel imposed a "full siege" on the Palestinian enclave. “No electricity, no food, no water, no fuel [...]. We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly,” declared Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant.

And in relation to the bombardments:

En consideration de la declaration anterieure, on peut legitement s'interroger sur l'application, ou non, de la "doctrine Dahiya", qui preconise l'utilisaton de la force militaire disproportionnee lors de represailles contre des zones civiles [...] La doctrine Dahiya theorise, depuis 2008, qu'il ne faut plus faire la distinction entre cibles civiles et militaire afin d'affaiblir les ennemis de l'Etat hebreu et les dissuader de lancer de futures attaques. En detruisant les infrastructure (routes, batiments admintratifs, installations electriques, etc) le but est d'obliger l'ennemi a consacrer tout son temps a reconstruire plutot qu'a s'organiser et a se rearmer. Un concept securitaire dont les civils payent le prix fort [..]

Which roughly translates as:

In light of this earlier statement, one can legitimately question whether or not the “Dahiya Doctrine”, which advocates the use of disproportionate military force in reprisals against civilian areas, is being used [...] The Dahiya Doctrine has theorized since 2008 that the distinction between civilian and military targets should no longer be made in order to weaken the enemies of the State of Israel and deter them from launching future attacks. Destroying infrastructure (roads, administrative buildings, electrical installations, etc.) is the aim, but it forces the enemy to devote all its time to rebuilding rather than organizing and rearming. A security concept for which civilians pay a heavy price [...]

@IcyPlumShaker I might be wrong but I think emotions were heightened because I posted the above quotes from a military magazine.

Ihatetomatoes · 06/03/2026 09:31

OrangeAxolotyl · 06/03/2026 09:25

I think those of us reading her posts are well aware of what she posted.
The issue was about "innocent victims".
She has since clarified her meaning.

He has back tracked a bit. We as females were horrified that rape was so casually excused.

Twiglets1 · 06/03/2026 09:32

magneticclocks · 06/03/2026 09:26

If you read back, I think HappyFace2025 said that the war started on Oct 7. She said that Israel had left Gaza in peace from 2005 (I have corrected her that factually this was incorrect) and that the recent war started as a result of Oct 7 (I said that this was not correct either). Disclaimer: I haven't read back to find the posts so if you provide a quote to the contrary of the above, apologies, but I am pretty sure that was said.

Well this particular war did start on Oct 7th and was triggered by the Hamas attack on a large number of innocent Israeli citizens (and a few unlucky citizens of other countries too who just happened to be there).

Of course there is a wider conflict going back much, much further - God knows how far back we should go with that one - but it is factually correct to say the war we are talking about on this thread started on Oct 7th 2023.

Ihatetomatoes · 06/03/2026 09:34

magneticclocks · 06/03/2026 09:30

@IcyPlumShaker I might be wrong but I think emotions were heightened because I posted the above quotes from a military magazine.

Incorrect.

Emotions were high because of what he said. We can read. We don't need to be told we are hard of hearing or reading. At the time I quoted what icy plum said. A large number of posters expressed disgust at what he posted.

magneticclocks · 06/03/2026 09:34

Ihatetomatoes · 06/03/2026 09:29

The icy plum one is male. I wont engage with him again after what he said.

They have said they are male? Where?

Twiglets1 · 06/03/2026 09:43

Ihatetomatoes · 06/03/2026 09:31

He has back tracked a bit. We as females were horrified that rape was so casually excused.

Edited

Also horrified by the casual thought process of: if I agree that Hamas raped and murdered Israeli women in Oct 7th ... Can you agree with me that Israel has committed genocide in Gaza?

Like the 2 things are bargaining chips.

HappyFace2025 · 06/03/2026 09:44

magneticclocks · 06/03/2026 09:26

If you read back, I think HappyFace2025 said that the war started on Oct 7. She said that Israel had left Gaza in peace from 2005 (I have corrected her that factually this was incorrect) and that the recent war started as a result of Oct 7 (I said that this was not correct either). Disclaimer: I haven't read back to find the posts so if you provide a quote to the contrary of the above, apologies, but I am pretty sure that was said.

I have not said that 'Israel had left Gaza in peace from 2005"! Israel left Gaza period, Jews who were living there had to be removed from their homes by the israeli army. 'Peace' was broken by the constant barrage of rockets over Israel sent by Hamas over the past 20 years. The current war was begun as a direct result of the 7 October atrocities.
Please stop with making out I am lying especially after I took the time and trouble to answer your questions yesterday. I note you haven't answered mine.

HappyFace2025 · 06/03/2026 09:45

OrangeAxolotyl · 06/03/2026 09:27

If you have an issue with another poster's comments, please take it up with her.

She has done, constantly.

OrangeAxolotyl · 06/03/2026 09:46

HappyFace2025 · 06/03/2026 09:45

She has done, constantly.

Indeed. There's just a strange approach to take issue with one poster by attacking another! It really defies logic.

Twiglets1 · 06/03/2026 09:46

magneticclocks · 06/03/2026 09:34

They have said they are male? Where?

We don't know for sure. Though I do agree that they appear to speak with a male voice more than a female voice. Given the exchange I referred to above (my post at 9.43).

magneticclocks · 06/03/2026 09:56

This reply has been withdrawn

Message removed as it refers to a post that has been withdrawn.

IcyPlumShaker · 06/03/2026 09:59

magneticclocks · 06/03/2026 09:30

@IcyPlumShaker I might be wrong but I think emotions were heightened because I posted the above quotes from a military magazine.

Thank you, I appreciate that. I think you're right.

I do stand by everything I've said. I haven't backtracked at all.

I don't think I ever said anywhere that the Israeli victims on Oct 7th were not innocent, or were ' asking for it ' or anything like that. I can also completely accept that some were raped; I'm not trying to deny that happened either.

I do think there is a comprehension problem for some people on this thread. Either that, or they're not really thinking clearly.

I'm really disheartened by the obvious pro-Israel bias by some people on here, and their refusal to see that Israel has done anything wrong. I'm not pro-Hamas, or even pro-Palestine particularly - if there was a thread where people were saying Palestine was completely innocent, I'd be taking issue with that too.

As the old saying goes, ' there are none so blind as will not see ' - I think that's the territory we're dealing with here.

HappyFace2025 · 06/03/2026 10:01

It looks like I am the only poster who believes the war did begin after the atrocities committed by Hamas on 7 October. The retaliation (if people prefer to use that term instead of war) was the start of what is now commonly called the war in Gaza.

Ihatetomatoes · 06/03/2026 10:02

Twiglets1 · 06/03/2026 09:46

We don't know for sure. Though I do agree that they appear to speak with a male voice more than a female voice. Given the exchange I referred to above (my post at 9.43).

Edited

I took a look, since I was horrified at what poster was saying and didn't sound female and wondered if that style of posting was usual for that person. It was.. However, cannot say more since he will report.

magneticclocks · 06/03/2026 10:03

HappyFace2025 · 06/03/2026 09:44

I have not said that 'Israel had left Gaza in peace from 2005"! Israel left Gaza period, Jews who were living there had to be removed from their homes by the israeli army. 'Peace' was broken by the constant barrage of rockets over Israel sent by Hamas over the past 20 years. The current war was begun as a direct result of the 7 October atrocities.
Please stop with making out I am lying especially after I took the time and trouble to answer your questions yesterday. I note you haven't answered mine.

So you are saying that when Israel as you say left Gaza there was no intention to leave it in peace????

I didn't say you were lying in relation to this and said I might have got your statement wrong.

Re Gaza have a look at my long post quoting from a military magazine - it refers to a project which was put in place by Israel in 2008. So as I said upthread, I think you are factually wrong in your analysis (not lying)
I have now responded to your other post and I did appreciate your reply explaining your point of view, thank you

OrangeAxolotyl · 06/03/2026 10:05

There is most definitely a comprehension problem on this thread, @IcyPlumShaker .
You yourself felt motivated to clarify your own posts.
Stop with the constant repetitive mantra of "pro Israel bias". It really doesn't further any discussion and is just a blunt instrument to hit people with.

magneticclocks · 06/03/2026 10:06

Ihatetomatoes · 06/03/2026 10:02

I took a look, since I was horrified at what poster was saying and didn't sound female and wondered if that style of posting was usual for that person. It was.. However, cannot say more since he will report.

@twiglets1 and @Ihatetomatoes
Just to let you know as a biological female I find it deeply offensive for you to be referring to "female" and "male" styles of posting. There are virtually no differences between male and female brains other than to do with hormones. Differences in style are to do with conditioning. And men are in fact allowed to post on MN, though the assumption is that most of us are female. Just letting you know, I don't expect you to agree with me.

Their posts have been misunderstood and misread, that is the problem.