Or are young people becoming increasingly insular/scared/lacking in motivation and drive?

[walkies77]

Sorry, this is going to be long.

Something I've noticed with my own children, and wondering if this is just us or if others have noticed the same. I'm not particularly driven or ambitious myself, but I do think you need to make something of your life and have experiences/pursuits/adventures.

Examples:

• Both kids have given up almost all their hobbies (despite our resistance), including ones they used to really be into.
• An academically able child fought nail and tooth to go to the local college rather than stay in their private school or go to a local grammar school. Now at said college their attendance is really poor and they are scaling down their effort, even talking about pursuing a career in childcare rather than their previous area of interest.
• Same child got an opportunity to go on a school trip to New York and we managed to negotiate a discounted price but in the end they said they didn't want to go.
• They also really didn't want to go on a young people's conference in Spain focusing on a theme that they were very interested in but I insisted and in the end they had a good trip and performed really well.
• Other child has a once-in-a-lifetime school trip to Bali in the summer, which we have been saving for for over a year. Now they don't want to go because they are afraid to go scuba-diving and feel insecure around people.
• Both like to spend most of their free time in their rooms on their devices, letting their rooms become a tip and not doing anything towards schoolwork unless nagged and nagged and often not even then.
• One child is seriously at risk of failing some of their GCSEs but doesn't seem to see it as a serious thing despite endless amounts of constructive conversations, nagging, supportive measures etc etc etc.

Is this a post-Covid/state of the world thing where they perhaps feel so disheartened by the future they just sign off everything? It's a bit daunting when every other day there is a news story of bright Oxbridge graduates struggling to get a job so where does that leave the less driven or able young people?

Or is it an electronic devices thing?

Or what?

I work from home and don't get around much but fantasise of being able to travel the world and see and experience things.

What's happened to young people? AIBU?

I totally agree with this!

can you start small OP?

can you start building their confidence and problem solving at home? I think cooking and food shopping is an easy assessable one?

maybe tell them they are responsible for feeding the family next weekend! Give them a budget and let them work it out for themselves, going to the shop choosing things, cooking it etc

sounds silly but I really believe that kids who contribute to the running of a household really gain a sense of importance and confidence

Screens are ruining peoples lives. They are altering the chemicals in developing brains and causing all kinds of issues around socialisation, anxiety and depression. People are losing interest in the world because they are constantly seeking the dopamine hit they get from non stop images and videos.

The invention of the smart phone was a disaster for mankind. I truly believe that.

Couldn't agree more. The difference in the eldest when they got one came very rapidly.

You aren't the only one OP. I have to battle to encourage my ds to do things, I'd have taken someone's hand off for when I was 17. He loves it when he finally gets there but gosh, it's hard work.

Ds is getting better but I find myself having to give reassurance that I would expect more from a 12yo. Planting an idea in his head and then giving him 6 weeks to think about it seems to be the best approach.

You sound like you feel you’ve lost your way with the eldest?

remember all the good parenting you did when they were small is still there as a foundation ❤️ so many families have struggled to get to normal after Covid.

would you be comfortable with a tougher approach with the eldest? Maybe only offer to pay half the phone bill and tell them they need to sort the rest?

our nephews didn’t like the idea of traditional work as a young person but instead buy things from the local car boot and flip them on eBay, does the eldest have a special interest that would facilitate that?

teaches some soft skills with potential buyers as well as meeting shipping deadlines and managing cashflow!

I don’t recognise this in my dc, their friends, my nieces and nephews and the numerous other young people I know. DD’s sports club is full of teens who train to a high level, do well in school, go on holidays, school trips etc.

I mean, are you ambitious and confident? It has to be modelled.

That said, late teens are a rough time. I was that age in the mid 90s. No COVID. No social media back then. I definitely panicked and changed my mind about things. I dropped out of a very good school. I refused to go to a really good uni.

Frankly, I was just going through a lot of stuff and I didn’t have particularly supportive parents to help me through it.

By the way, as an adult, I’m very ambitious. I got a PhD. I’ve travelled and worked all over the world. Really confident, can speak in front of 100s of people. I’m not 16 anymore and I eventually got the support I needed back then.

Remove / severely restrict the devices if you can (easier said than done) and make absolutely sure nobody is smoking weed.

No, not really I'm afraid. I come from a humble background and it's not so easy/natural when you do.

I've tried to gently push them towards doing better. Although I don't think I'm any king of Tiger Mom.

Your story is inspiring. I hope they find their way in the future.

I tried to put boundaries around the phone with the eldest and it did not go well. At all.

Will try again when the youngest gets one although I'm dreading it.

It’s 100% the devices. I have covid era DC a little older and they are the opposite of yours, very motivated and lots of interests. They’ve always done sport and clubs after schools and went to schools where phones were banned during the school day. So they never had time to form a big habit. So sorry to sound boastful and I do empathise with you. They have friends who are similar to your DC, maybe less extreme, and they are the ones who have always been hooked on their devices. I think in future generations the wealth divide will be influenced massively by this factor. My DD says her kids won’t have phones because she’s seen the damage they do to people’s social skills.

My DD did Camp America the summer before uni and it was great. No phones allowed and lots of activities with really positive, outdoorsy Americans. It was exhausting but great for her confidence. Also volunteering abroad schemes or backpacking might jerk them out of it.

Yes, I hope this Bali trip may prove beneficial. It's some sort of community work so not just a jolly. And apparently they only get given some local SIM card for their phones so they're not glued to them all day.

Mine are a bit like this re hobbies and activities, though academically they seem to be doing ok still (I suspect a bit younger than yours though). I feel like a rubbish parent but can't seem to motivate myself to limit the devices, because it is so hard and I get screamed at, then feel even more demotivated and rubbish.
Feels like things started to go wrong around covid and we never got back on track. And I wfh and feel similarly listless and demotivated a lot of the time.

It's devices. I listened to a really fascinating (and quite unsettling) podcast about this the other day:

https://open.substack.com/pub/uncomfortableconversations/p/premium-how-big-tech-destroys-learning?utmcampaign=post&utmmedium=email

There are too many interesting things in it to summarise them all, I really recommend a listen.

Edit: I'll summarise a few bits, while I remember them:

Computers are very bad for learning, we need some kind of physical engagement and human connection to really learn well.

The countries that have embraced tech the most in day to day life (China and Japan) nevertheless don't use computers much in schools.

Learning about resilience is not the same as learning how to be resilient (through experience). This is a huge problem for young people today, as they are only doing the former.

Genie is out of the bottle though isn't it? There's no going back unfortunately and just can't isolate one child by resisting, it would be extremely unfair and counter productive. I'm 60 and have two mid 20's DC, devices are a way of life. It just has to be navigated because it's not going anywhere for better or worse.

I have a younger sibling in their mid-20s who is exactly the same. The worst part is they think they are 100% right about everything and that DP and I (millennials) are ‘delulu’ with our optimism, drive and zest for life.

I mainly just feel sorry for them and have distanced myself. Perhaps I would feel different and more responsible if it were my child rather than my sibling, but sometimes you’ve got to just let people fester and/or self-destruct. It’s their life.

It is really interesting and terrifying how my 16yo seemed to almost overnight go from someone who did very well at school and had hobbies, including one they were really invested in to someone not really interested in anything when they got a phone.

It's the doom scrolling generation... Loving life though a screen never wanting to gout, so never experiencing tricky moments,singer scared and turn into boring boring people who do nothing, have no thoughts, no desires to do anything... because...scroll scroll scroll scroll.

Technology makes your world feel bigger than it is. You can stay in your house and get fed and entertained without having to do anything at all. The real world doesn't compare, so it's easier to stay on devices and chase that dopamine hit. My DCs love staying home on a device, but they have screen limits and I do insist that they get out at least once a day. It's hard because they are growing up in a completely different world to the one we did.

I don't think it's everyone - teenagers have always spent loads of time in their bedrooms. We were just listening to music and maybe phoning friends on the landline, not on social media.

Some kids meet up less than they used to in real life, though my oldest (17) is with friends far more than DH and I ever were at their age. They are a bit of an outlier and are into very social things like performing and protest which work best actually out in the world. I do gather a lot of young people don't see each other as social media/whatsapp takes the place of meeting. Also, doing anything is super goddamned expensive - I imagine many young people can't or don't want to ask their parents for the money it takes to go out. Plus there are fewer jobs under 18s can do to make money themselves with the demise of high street shops and a general idea that under 18s won't be capable of doing stuff (which i think is nonsense and a shame)

I think sometimes young people can be a little self limiting - it is good to have boundaries and not over-task yourself but sometimes this whole 'set boundaries' thing can also spill over into not pushing boundaries and taking risks. It sometimes feel like oldest has ruled themselves out of some things before trying them, for example. But like I said, there are positives to having boundaries too.

It is hard but just leave he/her at home but let them know they can't change their mind at the last minute.

It is addiction to devices

I think they get quite confusing messages from adults.

One is work hard at school get qualifications go to uni and get a good job, buy a house

But the next is there are no graduate jobs, heres far to many graduates, you'll never get a deposit together, its all a big debt.

Then its AI is coming for all the middle class jobs left and all the creative ones. The only jobs left will ne physical.

Then its get an apprentiship or a trade but they arent actually that easy to 'get' and despite everyone saying plumbers earn millions, not all apprentiship are plumbing. So your example of childcare its not AI replaceable, doesnt need a degree so no deb, but it probably doesnt pay well so now its not ambitious enough.

I suspect some people are more susceptible than others to it, but it's nonetheless a lot of people, and it's a huge problem. I feel it myself, as a dopamine seeker. I don't even do social media, but sometimes I still get stuck for a few days spending too much time on a site e.g. Mumsnet, and everything else seems duller by comparison. I force myself to reset by doing things like longform reading (of a physical book ideally), or watching films without any devices around me, but I grew up without smartphones and I know how to do that. Young people don't.

I do wonder sometimes if we're all overreacting - my dad used to say TV would rot the brain, after all - but I'm not sure we are. I don't have my phone on me unless I absolutely need it, which is basically just when I take a train or go to the shops and need some app or other. I don't take it when I go for walks, and I don't have it near me when I watch TV. I still feel like I'm too addicted to it though, and I definitely am to my laptop.

When I have friends staying with me, they are in their phones all the bloody time, and I hate it. Even if phones aren't messing with people's brains (and it seems that they are), they're ironically very antisocial, considering people are supposedly socialising on them. I loathe text and whatsapp conversations as a means of maintaining relationships though, it's completely pointless (also covered in that podcast I linked to). I feel no sustenance via text, everyone sounds the same, and when friends send me videos and things my heart sinks, because I know they expect me to watch and respond. Text is fine for making arrangements and other essentials. For actual friendship and catching up, I do it in person, or at worst on a phone call. Doesn't matter if it's only every few months or even years, it feels more real and sustaining then endless wittering on whatsapp.

I disagree with that.I've made all three of mine work from about 14. (Various badly paid jobs for a max of about 5 hours a week). Hasn't stopped them working or revising any left, just stopped them being on their screens.
Learnt so many skills and people always comment on how they are at engaging.