To think in the past people had more stoicism and resilience and it’s a shame we’ve sort of lost that?

[Carrotted]

Towards the end of the battle of Waterloo, the Marquess of Uxbridge, a British general, had part of his leg blown off by a French cannonball. He was sitting atop his horse next to the Duke of Wellington, to whom he turned and said “By God, sir, I think I’ve lost my leg”, to which the Duke of Wellington replied “By God, sir, so you have”. He then went to the field hospital where the remaining leg was amputated without anaesthetic, while he joked with the surgeons.

Thats one individual and the story is probably elaborated for effect, but AIBU to think people in previous generations tended to be more stoic in the face of adversity. To have a “get on with it” attitude?

There are obvious downsides to that attitude, but it can have lots of benefits to have that approach to life.

AIBU?

So you are referring to one subject- trans ideology- when you reference “bringing your whole self to work” then?

No they just got shot as cowards when they couldn't go back into the trenches so not seen as shameful at all🤨
You really should look into how shellshoked soldiers were treated and how its only in the last decade that they received postumus apologies before you make a bigger foul of yourself

I have always enjoyed this story, but, having checked Rory Muir’s biography of Wellington I can’t see that it is mentioned at all. I’ll have another look but if there were a reliable record of it happening, I’m sure it would be in there.

On the other hand, there is this about the Duchess of Richmond‘s ball finishing prematurely: ‘Lord Uxbridge came to the door…[and] said, “you gentlemen who have engaged partners, had better finish your dance and get to your quarters as soon as you can.”’

Finishing one’s dance just before a battle is admirable sang froid, it seems to me.

I have no doubt that were the young people of today called upon to make the sacrifices that our forebears did, then they would do so. I earnestly hope that this is never needed.

You are showing your ageism there - yes, why not have yet another go at the so-called 'boomers' - what terrible people we are (not). And no, we did not have everything handed to us on a plate, despite what people like you think.

Every thread 😭

There's a wonderful BBC clip from maybe early 60s with a very young Judith Chalmers interviewing a 16 year old British girl who, on a visit to Germany, wandered into East German territory and was detained. She's the very definition of stoic when describing her experience.
Just found it- here it is:

So are you saying if that happened again you would refuse the profit?
We cannot be blamed for how the property market worked. BTW lots of people lost their homes but that's conveniently forgotten.
We made £100000 When we sold our house but to get there i had to work 3 part time jobs and pay for my dh and 3 kids as my dh became ill at 55 and never worked again, although he had worked 39 years up to that point. Didn't qualify for any benefits. But I did it. We had enough to buy a park home and now live on our state pensions.
For you to begrudge us that is frankly fucking disgusting.

How much more shameful does it get than being shot for it? 😒

Regardless of its accuracy, I've always loved this story about the Marquess of Uxbridge. We saw one of his impressive artificial legs when visiting lovely Plas Newydd in Anglesey.
Hadn't realised until reading the Wikipedia article that his brother and daughter also lost limbs on the battlefield! What an unfortunate family.

And that's a great point.

PTSD wasn't a diagnosis then but shell-shock was and there was little treatment available for it.

My Great Grandfather was in the battle of the Somme and came home with what we now know is PTSD and at times presented as psychotic but when examined by a psychiatrist years later was told 'it's all because of what you saw and did in the war, there's nothing that will help that, go home and be with your family and carry on working'. And he did, as he always had because there was no way that he couldn't work when he had 7 children to support.

I'm not suggesting we go back to those days but now PTSD as a term has become virtually meaningless because people don't understand the actual diagnosis and what it means and identify with it as 'something bad happened or I saw something bad and it made me distressed'.

'I have PTSD from covid lock-downs, it was so stressful', 'I totally have PTSD from watching that movie', 'I have PTSD from being cheated on' are frequent occurrences on MN or other SM in the same way people say 'I have OCD, I like all my books to be in height order on the shelf' or 'I can't stand outdoor shoes in the house, total OCD' .

It's actually quite offensive to people really suffering from mental illness to see that. Especially when people say 'you can't gate-keep illness or trauma, if they think they have it, they do'.

And it seems some people are being diagnosed with the actual disorder when they shouldn't meet the criteria, having a difficult divorce, being bullied at work or I even saw a poster saying they were diagnosed with PTSD from another child puking on them in primary school.

People may not have a right to not be offended but by the same standard others don't a right to be mean mouthed and nasty because they don't agree with something either.

As for woke, oh please. In the workplace basic good manners and respect should top everything else. People need to shut up and keep quiet about their colleagues being gay or something else, a different culture or creed. People's personal opinions should be of no importance whatsoever. There's enough bullying that goes on currently.

Totally agree and Covid showed exactly that. No stoicism or resilience just the fact that people cannot cope with change or something suddenly happening that’s outside of most people’s control such as a pandemic

Everyone quick to say MH is trashed etc etc. parents of today are not doing their kids any good by giving them everything and not telling them what it’s like out in the real world where you will be told no where you will be expected to work and deal with sudden change and where life is hard but you have to suck it up and move on

the slightest thing now and it’s me/my kid has MH problems adhd might be on the spectrum etc anything rather than toughen up and take it as a life lesson. They are doing those with genuine MH or autism a real disservice

I just want to scream sometimes as we are our own worst enemy with the pandering we have to do now. We are not doing future generations any good

So you can't read or just ignored my comments about politics and religion then

You haven’t really thought your comments through to their natural conclusions conclusions have you?

My whole self is depressed and anxious as fuck most of the time. No one wants me bringing that to work despite the fact that makes me me. I also am autistic and if you really want my whole self? Cool I’ll talk at you about my special interests (complete with showing you videos and photos) for the ENTIRE DAY. No one wants that. Instead, I go in, I do my job, I smile nicely and make “normal” small talk, then I go home. I don’t care if someone’s small talk is about their opposite sex spouse or their same sex spouse. But I don’t need to hear about anyone’s constant mental health woes or their political or religious rants (again, I don’t care if someone’s small talk mentions their religion if it’s relevant) or any other “whole self” things like that. Just pleasant “how was the weekend John?” Responded by “lovely thanks. My husband and I went to the temple to pray then had a family lunch after with the in laws “. Cool. That’s enough of their whole self as I need. So where by “whole self” may have originally meant people not hiding being gay etc, these days it means much more than that and not in a good way.

Historians didn't write down all the times people got their legs blown off by cannonball and collapsed screaming. We have a skewed view of things. It's the same with stuff like "Blitz spirit". We think that people we stoic in the face of the blitz, stuck together, followed the rules; when in reality there was a black market and loads of looting of bombed houses alongside it.

Isn’t that the point of resilience that you don’t actually know what everyone is going through? I’d say on the whole people are remarkably resilient. Covid in particular - business went from office-based to home working overnight, running the economy from the kitchen table whilst homeschooling at the same time.

And rape and abuse. The evacuation of children to the countryside is likely the biggest peadophile ring we’ve never uncovered

That's a trope and lots of people with cancer resent it.

And it depends what you mean by 'crumble'.

My best friend was diagnosed with stage 3 cancer at 39 with a toddler. Had a mastectomy and chemo and it still killed her 2 years later.

At no point was she brave or courageous. She was angry and terrified and depressed and had off the scale anxiety.

She did, after almost a year off sick go back to work and worked till 6 weeks before she died because she wanted to. Because she found it helpful, not because she had to. While being angry, depressed, anxious and terrified.

But watching her die shattered for me the trope that people dying young of cancer or any illness are all stoic or courageous because they're not.

But cancer patients aren't really what this thread is about as no-one would expect them to be stoic or resilient.

In the Second World War, women were expected to pack their children off to live with strangers in the countryside for years. This caused life long trauma for mothers and children. It was decades before the true scale of abuse and trauma suffered by these people, it was hidden by the government who launched a massive propaganda campaign claiming it was wonderful and mothers should be ashamed of not sending their children away. The whole thing was an absolute shambles, but we’ll claim women “just got on with it”

Men were sent off to World War I, full of stories about how heroic they were, and how they would see the world, protecting their country, nothing to fear lads, we will take care of you. Nearly 60,000 men died on the first day of the Battle of the Somme. Entire battalions were wiped out, men say their friends gassed or mortally wounded right in front of them. One quarter of the men we lost died from disease, not war. These were teenagers and very young men. And when their mental health was so depleted from it they deserted, we brought them back and shot them. Those guys just weren’t resilient enough. Of course they “just got on with it,” what choice did they have? When they returned to their families, entirely changed and suffering PTSD, those families disintegrated, women and children suffered at the hands of their husbands who had become abusive and there was very little support for any of them. They “just got on with it”.

We romanticise the old days and how brilliant everyone was, and got through it entirely unscathed, accusing all the younger generations of being weak and snowflakey because they haven’t had to suffer those hugely traumatic events. We accuse them of being soft because they are prepared to protect their mental health and aren’t prepared to put up with the bullying and abuse in the workplace that was common 40 years ago. We call them lazy and workshy because they believe they should spend quality time with their families rather than working overtime with no pay.

Resilience is important for any person. Some will have it in spades, some will not. Your own personal circumstances will dictate how you deal with it. This next generation will have to deal with entirely different problems than I had to as a young person. That doesn’t mean they have it easier or are less resilient, but as their parents, we are equipping them with the tools to be able to carry on, but also take care of their mental health in the hopes that suicide doesn’t remain the biggest killer of men under 60. We are teaching them they should take time to stay healthy so they don’t become a burden on the NHS. That has nothing to do with a lack of resilience.

Using a lack of resilience as a weapon against young people, is simply an excuse used by older generations to continue to treat people like shit then blaming them for pushing back on it.

They had just as many problems it just wasn’t talked about.

My grandfather who was in the first world War and the Second World War suffered from “shellshock“ and was anxious and tearful up until he died in 1970. My grandmother had had a nervous breakdown when she had young children, my father who came from poverty in Glasgow had depression most of his life. They just didn’t talk about it.

"The Marquess of Uxbridge had one leg blown off and then cheerfully played For He's a Jolly Good Fellow on the tuba while having the other one amputated. If he can do that, you should all stop moaning."

What??

Couldn’t love this more. If anyone gets a chance I recommend the d day museum in Normandy- you’ll see there how many young men sent to their deaths were actually blind drunk having been so terrified they’d spent their days waiting to go drinking

I’m not sure there’s anything in my post which suggests I think people should be “propping up those who perpetuate an unfair divide”.

My point is that people today increasingly lack the basic emotional skills needed to cope with everyday life. This is largely due to the fact that today’s society pushes the narrative that anything outside of an individual’s comfort zone is to be avoided at all costs. We are teaching people that they won’t possibly be able to cope.

I work with teenagers, so often I hear ‘I can’t do that cause it gives me anxiety’. They’re so willing to write themselves off. They absolutely can do it, they’ve just been taught that they won’t be able to deal with a transient uncomfortable emotion.

I’m unclear what you mean by “they have resilience in abundance for the things they care about”. Do you mean commitment to campaigning for issues they believe in or to projects they choose to undertake? Because as admirable as that may be, it’s not resilience imo.

Pandemic really pissed me off ‘I need a holiday because my mental health is suffering’ - no you don’t, you need a good dose of perspective

I think the type of stoicism we need is to show a bit of willing to try and carry on just because there is a barrier or a negative experience- there is something to be said for picking yourself up and taking stock of what you CAN do rather despite feeling upset. You can be upset and still do - I’m talking about everyday sort of stuff not serious severe illness or chronic conditions during a flare up/pain.

Some people expect too ‘lifestyle’ stuff and had no idea what it is like to experience real adversity