Struggling with response to friend re circumcision

[cultureclash]

A close friend of mine gave birth a week ago and she messaged me yesterday to tell me that her son has just been circumcised with crying faces and that she is an emotional wreck. I was shocked at this as it’s not something we have ever spoke about before so I enquired as to is her son ok and did he have some medical issues and she said no, cultural reasons. I kept the responses short and factual but Aibu that I struggled to show any compassion or empathy for her that she has just paid over £200 to have bits chopped off her precious newborn baby and she is more upset for herself than the pain that she has just put her newborn infant through. I am suprised at how strongly I have reacted to this, I just cannot imagine doing this to my baby. Aibu to feel like this? I obviously would never voice my opinions to her and cause upset but I am struggling with my own emotions around this.

Its mutilation and sticking religion or culture as a label doesn't make it less so

Come on, why should men alter their genitals to accommodate what women like?
It wouldn't be alright for men to encourage modification of the labia or clitoris for aesthetic reasons, vice versa isn't OK either.

It does (or can) reduce sexual pleasure though. A jewish lad a few years above me in uni wrote an article about it which I have managed to find. At the time I remember my friends and I (some jewish) discussed it a lot at uni - I was surprised because while I'd heard of the practice I can't say I knew it could have that effect. https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/paul-livingston/circumcision-should-be-banned_b_1835614.html

Thanks for the article.

I suppose I assumed that since so many men (Jewish, Muslim & American) have had it and don't report loss of sexual pleasure, this effect couldn't be that widespread. But maybe not...

Why do fathers encourage it then? And mothers?

It's true that the Jewish philosophers Philo of Alexandria and Maimonides both said one purpose (not the main) was to reduce sexual pleasure.

No one wants to circumcise your baby. You do you.

"You do you" is not a fitting phrase though, is it?

That means you do what you want with your life and I'll do what I want with mine. Everyone's making decisions for themselves and not hurting anyone else. Live and let live.

But when we're talking about cutting body parts off babies, it's not "you do you" is it. Just like we don't turn a blind eye to child neglect because "it's up to parents to do what they like with their babies"

"I do think that from a female perspective, circumcision is preferable when it comes to sexual partners"

Speak for yourself. That's entirely subjective and based on your individual experiences, and what's been normalised for you thanks to your culture. And the average man is perfectly capable of cleaning his penis.

Personally, I think circumcised penises look ugly and weird, and seem much more difficult to deal with in terms of manual/oral sex because they don't have any free skin to move about. See - it's entirely subjective, and based on whatever's normalised for an individual by their society.

I'm curious - do you feel the same way about using smacking as a form of discipline?

It makes sense that the glans constantly rubbing on underwear would reduce its sensitivity - you only have to look at an uncircumcised penis glans vs a circumcised penis glans to see that the former has more tender, sensitive looking skin, while the latter has a different colouration and appears notably calloused and dried out in comparison.

I imagine the reason most men don't complain is because they have it done at birth, so never know the difference. And for those who choose to have it done in adulthood for medical or religious reasons, I have anecdotally read that they say it quickly becomes at least slightly less sensitive.

It was initially popularised in the Victorian era to reduce the incidence of masturbation - so clearly the reduction in sensitivity was observed and desired. As you can see from this thread though, it's become so normalised that a lot of people think it's 'attractive'

Agreed. I suppose if you're circumcised from birth you have nothing to compare it to. But the NHS site for circumcision in adults says:

"Other possible complications of circumcision can include:

- permanent reduction in sensation in the head of the penis, particularly during sex"

https://www.nhs.uk/tests-and-treatments/circumcision-in-men/

I had an acquaintance have her son circumcised as her husband wanted it (cultural reasons). I was honest and said I don’t understand her simply bowing to her husband on this as it’s a barbaric practice.

Her husband reacted like your friend, he was really shaken up by it which then made his insistence on doing it even weirder to me.

Some of them are. There are multiple forms of FGM some directly comparable with male circumcision yet all, rightly, banned. We should do likewise for non medical male circumcision of children.

Adult men can do as they wish with their own penises.

Type 4 doesn’t necessarily escalate otherwise there would not be multiple types. But even if a family wanted to stop solely at type 4 we would all see it as barbaric.

I cannot believe you are arguing a benefit of mutilating babies is “their female parents may prefer it.”

Would you ever make the argument that one benefit of modifying girls bodies maybe the “sexual preferences of their male partners”.

A quick Google reveals a number of male advocacy groups against circumcision of babies.

Here are some of the key groups against male circumcision:

• Bloodstained Men & Their Friends (BSM): A U.S.-based, 501(c)(3) organization known for public protest demonstrations where members wear all-white outfits with red paint on the crotch to symbolize the blood and pain of circumcision.
• Intact America: One of the largest organizations working to end infant genital cutting in the United States, focused on advocacy and education.
• Doctors Opposing Circumcision (D.O.C.): A group that provides medical information and evidence against the routine, non-therapeutic genital cutting of infants.
• 15 Square (formerly NORM-UK): A UK-based charity and support group that helps men affected by circumcision, provides advice, and works to raise awareness about the value of the foreskin.
• National Organization to Halt the Abuse and Routine Mutilation of Males (NOHARMM): A group focused on halting the routine circumcision of male infants.
• Genital Autonomy America (GAA) & GALDEF:Advocacy groups that focus on protecting the bodily integrity of children, with GALDEF focusing on legal strategies.
• Intact Kenya: A group aimed at halting the imposition of circumcision in Africa, specifically focusing on the rights of children to reach adulthood with intact bodies.
• Jews Against Circumcision (JAC) & Bruchim:Groups formed by individuals within the Jewish community that question or oppose the tradition of brit milah (ritual circumcision).
• intaktiv e.V.: A German-based charity promoting, in German, the right to genital autonomy.

Incidentally I am not sure your argument t holds that you would assume there is no issue as many circumcised men get their sons circumcised.

In many countries where FGM is performed it’s circumcised women insisting on it for their daughters. A lot of people follow their cultural practice unquestioningly.

You seem to be trying to make a point. Can you clarify what it is?

OP I’d reply that I think this should be illegal (if you do) so I’m not the best person to speak to about this.

I’d message back :

‘poor babyname - really hope he’s ok’

i couldn’t go there with her feelings about this.

if it was a lifesaving operation that she’d just watched her baby endure I would feel massive sympathy for her - but she chose or allowed this to occur.

It’s not really her feelings that matter - it’s the poor little boy I’d feel sorry for and would express as much.

Please quote a source for this.

If you were 'offered' a circumcision for your DS by medics, he would have had the operation under a general anaesthetic, and it would have been performed under strict sterile conditions. Having said that, from the little you have said here, and for what it's worth PrizedPickledPopcorn, I think you made the right decision.

I think that any decisions about a child's body, that shouldn't/wouldn't affect them until their late childhood years, or their early adulthood years, and that could still be easily undertaken in their later teenage years and upwards, should be left until they are old enough to make those decisions for themselves.

Therefore, I truly believe that for a one week old baby - or for any baby or child of any age really - that putting them through the risks of unnecessary operations, is at the very least neglecting to act in their best interests, but also very cruel, by causing them to feel horrendous pain, if they are not anaesthetised first. So, I don't think that I could remain friends with any parents who had their children circumcised for any reason, apart from a compelling health issue.

Sure, although you could have googled it. I'm not sure many people practise it in recent years, as I imagine it would be illegal in Oz now, but here's an academic mention for Aborigines in Australia, and here's the Wikipedia page (warning: with photographs of penises).

Some tribes in Papua New Guinea apparently practised variations of it too.

Poor little boy 🥹 this broke my heart! Abuse if not medically needed. I feel for him not the mother

It is absolutely wild how prevalent this is in the US! It's just so normal over there

Agree with the PP that it is often more pleasing to the female eye but that should be neither here nor there. Not even a blip in the convo. Despite being delighted with what my American "gentleman friend" presented to me once 😂, I still consider it to be unecessary and cruel to do this to babies, and I would also hold very tricky feelings about a close friend doing this to their nerborn.

What would be the reasons?

OP is perfectly entitled to be horrified by this and to judge her friend for allowing this to happen - and for appearing more upset for herself than for her baby.
It's all complicated by cultural and religious background of course and the friend may have been subjected to enormous pressure to conform.
I'd describe myself as very protective of people's beliefs but I could never condone religious or cultural practices that involve coercive control or that cause physical or emotional harm.
Safeguarding should transcend these practices at all times so of course we should speak out whenever we can.

And it’s practised by two major world religions, Islam and Judaism. That’s why it’s been normalised. FGM isn’t, it’s not a Muslim or Jewish practice.