Dd, autism and cake - Thread 2

[bendmeoverbackwards]

I had no idea that my first thread would fill up and I am in awe and overwhelmed at the amount of support.

I am going to re-read all the responses and make a plan. Thank you, this has been eye opening.

Just trips of a few days though and not both you and dh? How much time did you take preparing food for dd3 and messaging her while away/her messaging you. As an outsider I appreciate you are doing your best but it does come across as very unbalanced and they will be holding back for fear of burdening you whatever you say.
Maybe explore changing your behaviour for Spain trip. So no pre prepping dinners or text reminders to eat, just leave her some safe foods you know she can prepare.
She is clearly capable of living alone for few days without mum. Could she do longer? Could she manage with less scaffolding? That’s for you to explore. Unless you push you won’t know.

Naturally, I think most people assume that every problem can be solved. It's empowering to think that way: that if you just do something differently, apply more pressure, the problem will be solved. That if you take more control, you'll win. You just need to take more and more control until the other person submisses because you've removed all their options. This only works until you meet someone who is more hardwired, more determined, than you are to maintain control, by whatever means necessary. Someone who is in such a deep place that no reason or logic - the rules of the real world - applies.

Or else people put their faith in 'other agencies' and 'authorities' stepping in, without any real knowledge of the gaps that exist within those various systems.

I truly hope this isn't the case with the op's dd. I really hope that a change in approach unlocks real, sustained progress. But as I've said elsewhere, op needs to prepare for the possibility that this doesn't happen and thinks about "what then?" It's pretty stark, but it's reality.

But many more people with autism function as capable adults living full and happy lives.

I know which future I choose for my child.

And until op’s daughter is ‘tested’ by trying to live a full adult life, her actual capabilities will be unclear.

And this is why @bendmeoverbackwards must act to help her daughter overcome her challenges. Which means op being boundaried, having high(er) expectations, removing the trappings of childhood (eg giving pocket money and doing her washing for her).

This will provide an opportunity for her daughter to launch into adulthood.

The only alternative is to give up and rewrite their will to ensure this daughter will be looked after like a child throughout her life.

It's the hectoring attitude from some of the posts, and the assumption that something WILL work if only the OP takes their advice. It is parent blaming / shaming IMO. And mostly from people who have zero experience in this area.

The only alternative is to give up and rewrite their will to ensure this daughter will be looked after like a child throughout her life.

@AintNoPartyLikeANumber10Party no bloody way. This has strengthened my resolve.

@Arran2024 I really object to it being called tough love. Nothing suggested is tough. Most people couldn’t or wouldn’t pay an adult a generous allowance for doing nothing.
The dd3 may never be able to work or live independently but they don’t know. Their actions for last almost three years been to fund a very comfortable life and hope she matures and finds her way. They aren’t sure of her capabilities.
What isn’t helpful to the dd3 or them as parents or her siblings is to ignore the issue.
If she can’t function independently then they need to see what services are available. Yes services are stretched but they haven’t gone down that route. There’s a detailed section on our county council website for under 25 with SEND specifically dealing with young people and adulthood. There’s support groups for parents etc. She’s at risk of aging out of the under 25 support if they carry on as they are.
My view on yp in bedrooms mid to late 20s not on benefits or on radar of any authorities is a ticking timebomb not in anyone’s best interest. It’s far tougher if the yp is suddenly homeless when their parent dies or goes in a nursing home having made no provision.
If dd3 is going to need care and support for life then better to know know and they can plan accordingly - take appropriate financial advice re trusts etc, another poster mentions buying her dd a small flat and supporting heavily/paid for services in place in the hope she can continue living there when they are gone.

I really don't think anyone on this thread is advocating taking more and more control until the OP's DD submits. It's much more about creating conditions that will allow the DD to move forward, as she seems stuck. I would say that removing pocket money from an adult is an extremely gentle push in the direction of autonomy.

@bendmeoverbackwards you asked what would happen if the lack of money doesn't motivate your DD to make any changes. That is certainly a possible outcome that you need to be prepared for. But I wouldn't let the "what ifs" stop you. It has been a couple of months since you started this thread. Have you made any changes yet? When are you planning to implement a new approach? I hope that doesn't sound confrontational. I just know from witnessing similar family dynamics that it can be easy to avoid making decisions and maintain a status quo that may feel comfortable for all involved but is actually quite unhealthy. And the longer one waits, the harder it is to make any changes.

I agree about suggesting ways forward. I myself have suggested the Local Offer part of the LA website. Where i differ is (a)the hectoring tone of some comments (b) the assumption that all will be well if the OP does this or that and (c) the tough love suggestions (some of them are even if you don't like the phrase).

I have known parents cut off all financial support and their adult child just stays at home 24/7.

Unless you are physically going to put their stuff out on the street and then physically drag them out, it is not as easy as you might think to get adult children to leave.

I know so many families with adult children who are in a predicament of not knowing how best to proceed. This is partly due to my autism links. My own brother was always saying he would chuck his sons out at 18 if they weren't working.....they were both diagnosed with asd and needed a lot of scaffolding- and time - to get there. My experience is that time works better than parental stratwith these young people.

Honestly OP, I think the best thing you can do is step away from this thread. You’re analysing every single thing you want to do, ask or say! You obviously get varying opinions, which seems to just throw you into deeper confusion. Your best bet is to go and work things out as a family, not here on this thread.

I don’t know if stopping the allowance will work. No one does. In the short term I predict it will be ‘worse’ she’ll be upset. In the long term perhaps it changes the incentives towards being more productive or perhaps it doesn’t. At least it will be trying something rather than everyone carrying on being stuck in a horrible dynamic.

I can sure tell you what doesn’t work: Carrying on the same way expecting a different outcome.

We have 3 years of evidence that the current approach does not work. There has been no improvement with the passage of the time alone.

The allowance is somewhat of a red herring anyway. It is at least a concrete thing that can be changed but through all OPs posts there is evidence of a huge amount of accommodation of DD3 at others expense, a level of bending over backwards eg with the original birthday cake scenario that honestly seems a bit farcical to an outsider. The constant texting, Tik Tok videos, repetitive conversations about ‘trauma’ and misdiagnosis. The allowance issue is the tip of an iceberg of enabling maladaptive behaviours. If that is what ‘scaffolding’ someone with ASD amounts to then I can’t agree it’s a good idea.

I freely admit that my perspective is a CBT informed one about behavioural activation, challenging avoidance and shaping behaviour by changing incentives. I might be wrong in my advice but it’s a Talk board and having a variety of opinions from different people is what it’s about. Following PDA minimal challenge approach has not born fruit the last 3 years.

In my mental health work we see this all the time adults with neurodivergence holed up in bedrooms gaming or on Tik Tok sometimes using drugs and alcohol and always avoiding the real world with parents enabling this situation to continue and wanting MH services to do ‘something’ but what that something is supposed to be is never very clear. If the person concerned is an adult with capacity to make decisions and they refuse to engage with CBT or show motivation to make any changes then we can’t help and the parents are left to deal with it. Any advice I give is trying to avoid this being DD3s future.

I’m afraid that I feel the no challenge approaches recommended in various ASD circles aren’t helping such people and are just allowing maladaptive behaviours to get entrenched with no possibility to learn better coping strategies. Change involves challenge and discomfort that’s how we grow through adversity I’m afraid.

I am absolutely not advocating taking more and more control. I am advocating taking less and less.

Giving someone money is control in many ways it makes them dependent on you. It increases not decreases your control.

I’ve been saying lessen your expectations about uni etc and try to let her figure out what she really wants free of imposed (even implicitly) expectations.

But also lessen your well meaning ‘support’ which is a form of control and fosters dependency. Stop answering pointless texts and giving instructions about when to eat, don’t engage with circular conversations focused on the past. Be there if she reaches out but do less because you sometimes have to let someone hit a low before they acquire sufficient motivation to change. It’s well recognised in addictions why would it not apply similarly here?

If we rescue our kids from the negative consequences of their actions how do they learn to behave differently next time?

I'm glad to see there are mixed responses on this thread.

I do agree it's a good idea for OP to step back, set boundaries, stop doing so much for her DD etc.

However I think the danger is in posts that imply OP was wrong to use tactic A and if only she uses tactic B that will "work".

It may work, and it's certainly worth trying, but there is a very real possibility it won't, because of DD's autism and the way it presents in her particular case.

To give you a story, a young person close to me ended up dropping out of life age 20 ish. No diagnosis back then but probably high functioning autism. Their parent tried everything: encouragement to apply for jobs and courses, to go to GP for mental health support, etc. No allowance. Certainly not a case of parent wanting the young person at home for their own reasons. Young person just refused or stonewalled every suggestion. But otherwise wasn't a bad person. Other than physically dragging him and his possessions out of the house, there was nothing the parent could really do.

However I think one positive thing was that the parent did get on with their own life (as far as possible). So they weren't spending their time nagging, cajoling or hand wringing. Instead they were modelling how to get on with life.

The (not so) young person never left home or got a relationship or job though sadly, and the family are now having to think about how he will support himself when parent dies. He does now do most of the shopping, cooking and housework though. I think it's just a sad situation and nothing the parent could really have done.

I can sure tell you what doesn’t work: Carrying on the same way expecting a different outcome.

Nobody on this thread has suggested that as a good idea though @Shrinkhole. Being concerned when posters suggest cutting off her allowance as the way forward is different. Posters have suggested that the ‘pain of poverty’ will make her change her ways. Well, it might, but it’s a risky approach imho.

Autism covers a very wide variety of needs and I think a lot of posters are assuming that the OP's daughter's autism presents in a similar way to other family members/people they know. There's also an assumption that the issue is autistic burnout. I don't want to compound this by drawing parallels between OP's daughter and other people I know, but I will say that this may not be autistic burnout but another condition for which low demand would be wholly ineffective.

My understanding is that NVR can help parents deal with "failure to launch" young people.

How did she take this OP? In what way did she step up?

I agree with a pp that the OP’s daughter will likely resent her mother, whatever happens.

If home is made less cosy with chores, less money on tap and no WiFi she’ll be angry, irritable and upset, particularly in view of her screen addiction.

If home is still comfy and easy for her, in the years to come she’ll resent her static life, particularly as her friends complete studying, have jobs and careers and relationships wile she’s still in her room, in her parents’ house. The OP is already who she blames for everything now so that will continue.

I don’t think the desired outcome of being a mother is to have your child like you, all the time.

She did some of the chores asked of her whereas before she didn’t. She then asked for the remainder of her allowance as she had done the chores. I think this is positive in that she can see the reward of working.

I’m not hearing a lot of constructive suggestions from people who feel this is all ASD related and a ‘different’ approach is needed as to what that approach actually would be. The only suggestions I have seen from that perspective are wait and see if she grows out of it or just give up and resign yourself to life supporting her long term.

I don’t see reducing the allowance as incompatible with NVR at all. From what I know of that it looks like the kind of intervention that would be suggested in fact.

I also think that the privilege angle is relevant here. The young people I have seen in this situation have parents who are willing and able to bankroll them. It’s a huge ask to carry another adult long term for a number of years without a contribution to rent, food or anything let alone giving them extra for luxuries and then there’s all the time and effort involved. Lots of people in society don’t have the resources to do all that so they literally would have to take a different tack. Living off your parents income and resources long term as an adult is a pretty luxury lifestyle choice not open to most people who have to work, study or claim benefits to make ends meet. If wait and see for periods of years is the recommended course of action it’s not an equitable one for society as a whole.

The outcome for relationships in long term failure to launch adults I have met is not good. They usually are extremely ungrateful and complain bitterly about their parents despite having taken so much from them. Often they label their parents narcissistic or otherwise blame them for all the issues. This is especially the case when the money runs out.

It is also true that the cavalry in the form of ‘services’ is not coming to step in and take over the dependency when parents can no longer cope. The help offered, if any, may be rather a disappointment. If you are used to your own bathroom and a cleaner it’s not an attractive prospect to have to move to a bedsit in a shared house. If you are used to someone else shopping and cooking for you but in fact you are capable of those tasks you won’t get a carer or support worker to do it for you. You’ll have to buy sandwiches like lots of people with no cooking skills do. Having an ASD diagnosis in itself will not get you individual housing or a care package unless you have very high support needs and of course it’s all means tested.

19 is still young enough that it’s normal to be dependent on parents but with no plans to change that how normal will it look in another 3 years or another 6? I think a lot of the parents I meet who wish their late 20s/ early 30s dependent adult would leave home are wising they started earlier on tackling the issue and didn’t wait around for it to all come good in time.

I absolutely do agree that if a child is fixated on parents as the source of their problems, they will find a reason to blame their parents regardless of the approach taken. So that can't really be a factor in deciding what to do.

Did she have to have any help/advice/assistance to do the chores?

I agree, that sounds very hopeful; she can connect work with earning and she has some capacity for it.

You could have a payscale for individual chores; and/or have some chores that she expected to do for self-care and as an adult living with other adults, plus others that are paid.

The fact that she likes to push boundaries when she can - she did some tasks and asked for all of her allowance - means you might need to decide which tasks are expected and which are paid-for, and what the rate is for each task and tell her explicitly in advance so she knows exactly where she stands. Or be prepared to stand firm when she pushes the limits and wears you down with all those exhausting justifications, logical and emotional! (Been there done that...)

Hi OP - do I remember your username from the Oxbridge applicants thread some years ago? Anyway, you sound lovely - as you did back then too.

I haven't read the full thread, just most of your replies, so sorry if this has been said many times. But what screams out to me is that your daughter wants you to feel 'responsibilised' for her situation. It's easier for her to project her unconscious angst / insecurity onto you. You feel paralysed by all this, in the same way she does. But the endless projecting is just her go-to psychological defence mechanism - it means that she doesn't have to challenge and berate herself because she's doing that to you instead.

Fundamentally, I'm sorry, but an autism diagnosis is NOT a trauma engendering PTSD. Autism is a spectrum that many people are on and millions don't even know that they are. She is lucky she has parents who took the time to have her diagnosed. What would she have preferred - that you just ignored her struggles, didn't seek professional help and let her get on with it? If you hadn't had her diagnosed, she would no doubt be using that now as a stick to beat you with.

As I'm sure you're aware, a massive proportion of students at top unis have some degree of autism. Autism is not a barrier to going to uni. Some may say, for certain courses at certain unis, it's almost a prerequisite! Tell her this. There are millions of autistic spectrum people at unis - why wouldn't there be?

Stop feeling blamed. You are a human being and have done your best as a mum. She will understand this one day. This is just a point in time.

Also bear in mind that she is highly likely to be going down a self-aggrandising rabbit-hole online with loads of people telling her what she wants to hear - "speak your truth," "you are not a label," "omg your parents have caused your PTSD," etc etc etc. This is the Gen Z online culture and it's very toxic - way too much navel-gazing to be healthy.

If she continues with blaming you around this diagnosis, ask her would she have preferred to have had parents who didn't care enough to bother - because there are millions of those.

The world does not care if she is autistic. The world cares about how she treats people. I think she needs to get out of her own head and do something for other people. You mentioned she likes animals - that's fantastic. Could she work with cat adoption or some other animal charities? She has so much to offer and needs to reframe her situation as 'ask not what people are doing for you, but what are you doing for other people' (or something along those lines)!

Would she volunteer in a turtle or cat sanctuary abroad for a few weeks (or longer) - have a look at GVI or similar organisations?

But just stop pandering to this 'diagnosis' nonsense. The fact is, she is who she is, diagnosis or not. While she's blaming you, she's avoiding taking responsibility for anything. I wish you all the best.

I don’t see it as hectoring but handholding.
Op has posted several times over last several months. Initially incapable of making any decision and worrying re making things worse.
I think Op is now at stage where she sees her current approach isn’t in anyone’s best interests and is resolved to do something.
There’s of course no guarantee a change in approach will help dd3 launch.
Personally having been on this thread and others I do think the dd3 will start to do something if life is a little less comfortable and her access to 24/7 Tik tok/instagram is curtailed. If you can navigate London public transport alone, babysit and go out for meals with friends there’s hope.
She may always need more support, possibly never live independently but if I was Op I’d want to know if tried everything to assist her launch not just take the easy route of enabling her to stay home in a cosseted bubble.