Can we stop acting like everyone has an equal capability to become well off?

[DeluluTaylor]

Based on the pension thread but not about OP. All this ‘why do people spend their whole lives on MW’ is so woefully ignorant. Some people don’t have a choice.
Neurodiversity
confidence
childcare availability
institutional racism
learning disabilities
trauma and it’s impact
Lifelong insecure housing
Being able to speak English but not write it
So many, many reasons why it is difficult to climb up the ladder. I’ve never been able to as I don’t have the right skills for management. But the world needs more worker bees than managers!
Who do they think should do these jobs?

You know what. You are right. Nobody should ever think creatively about their options or have any ambition. All the people on OP's list should just stick to NMW. I'm glad we cleared that up.

I don’t have physical issues but I do have lack of self esteem, low confidence and I’m not the best at standing up for myself. I either start crying or get really angry so often avoid conflict in the workplace. I started from a low level, have done some training, read self help books etc so I have improved over the years. Could not afford therapy. But there is only so much I’ve been able to achieve, and I’ve had to try to make peace with this. As well as being a SAHM for a few years and then changing careers. I can see how my attributes have held me back quite a lot. I earn more than MW now but I’ve only gotten to average full time wages at this stage and I’m late 40’s. Lack of confidence can be really crippling. I guess I was born to be noble not rich.

Honestly people should have some ambition to take life by the handle and better themselves.

If someone is happy in their job that happens to be NMW, then what is the problem?
Why the pressure to earn as much money as you can? Life is so much more than that.

The barman at the pub my DP frequents is in his 40s on and NMW. He loves his job, as he loves the customers and he loves real ale.. advising people what they might like etc. Is he wrong for wanting to stay in his job? It ticks all his boxes.
Don't look down on people who have different criteria to you.

Life has never been a level playing field. Some people do manual work, others fly in other directions.

Because some people are more ambitious/brighter/better educated than others.

It’s not usually about luck.

We need both types of workers.

I think if you earn NMW FT and you're happy that's fine. As long as you're self sufficient on your income and not reliant on the state for UC.... So be it, you're taking self responsibility for your life! That's awesome.

Not even remotely what I said. If your argument had any merit such a silly response would have destroyed it. What I said was if everybody did that the6 still couldn’t all be promoted. That’s no reason not to do it, and I never said it was. What I said was some (most) will do it and still not advance.

not. Everyone. Can.
It’s not rocket science. There are fewer jobs the further up you go.

Someone needing a UC top up is not to blame. Many people needing top ups do so because of zero hour contracts where they are simply not offered enough work.
Also, AFAIK, you only get top ups if you have children. When I was in a FT NMW job, I was not entitled to anything, yet a colleague with kids (and a wife who was also on NMW) got top ups.

You know jolly well that's almost impossible for parents, single people or people in large cities to be self sufficient on minimum wage. Childcare alone will be almost one wage.
The good thing is that wages should be higher so you'll be happy to pay more for goods and services.

I saved money by working two jobs. The second job changed over time, but most of them were the kind of roles anyone could walk into off the street and do. Intellect was not required just the mindset that that type of work is not below you.

IMO there are people that make excuses and there are people that do. It wasn't luck that got me out of poverty it was knowing I wouldn't have anything unless I worked for it.

I like the post up thread where they mentioned a career pyramid, rather than a ladder.
I also think some people have no concept of what a dead end job is. No pyramid, and certainly no ladder.

The OP hasn’t “written anyone off” - they have stated factors of inequality which are very well documented and evidenced. There will be many cases (like yours) where it goes against this. But it doesn’t mean that structural barriers do not exist for the vast majority of the population. I would say the CEO you worked for was an exception to the rule.

Lots of people know that and work for it and still don’t advance - because there aren’t enough higher positi9n for them to do so. That’s not a criticism of you or an argument against trying - it’s just a fact.

Depends where you live. My Stepson was 21 when he bought his first flat. Left school at 16 and straight into a MW job. he paid rent to his mum and then when he moved in with us he paid £30 a week. He saved every penny he could because he wanted his own place, 9 years later he has just bought his forever home, a lovely detatched Sandstone villa. He made good choices with the money he had.

One of the brightest people I've ever known worked in a low wage role. She was from a poor background and was encouraged to leave school as soon as she could, A-Levels were never even an option. Low confidence too. Compare that to someone of average intelligence, goes to private school, all opportunities thrown their way. I wonder how their life is going to pan out?!

Exactly - we can't all be the MD can we?!

You've given up defending your idea quite quickly.
It's not easy for anyone to progress and certainly not possible for everyone to progress.

But if and when they work FT.... Then maybe they should have personal responsibility?

I'd understand time limited benefits when you're in major trouble and need help. But are you saying it's not a person's fault if they rely on UC top ups their entire working life?

Some people are simply not capable of more than low paid jobs. OP posted about the barriers to better work.
You don't even need to be on NMW to get top ups. I have seen posts on here from people on £40k+ that get UC top ups.
Blame the cost of rents and bills going up, and wages not keeping up with it. It is nothing to do with people who are doing low paid jobs.

If everyone took "personal responsibility", then who would do the low paid work?

It is totally luck, combined with genes and having the right circumstances/background.

All these things can make ot break a situation, a career or a life, and of course, people can become successful through sheer hard work too.

But..my publishing career was going great until I had a head injury and post concussion syndrome a decade ago before being injured permanently by an off label antipsychotic prescribed for severe insomnia and anxiety 😳 Consequently, I now have a movement disorder called tardive dyskinesia that is a bit like Tourette's and Parkinson's disease combined 😢

Plus, I lost my ability to read and write after my head injury... not great for an editor. A good upbringing, very loving adoptive parents, a degree etc, plus excellent health before being injured all made bugger all difference to my career and health problems now.

Being fit before didn't prevent being unwell. I totally agree that health is wealth. If I could turn back time and be that person 12 years ago before being unwell, my life might have been very different.

But, it just is life. So I carry on.

I agree that most people are potentially able to achieve something good in life. Whether life lets them do this is another thing entirely.

Some / a lot of people can't be arsed to put work in to increase their value in the market place.

Sorry, but that is a such a sad way to view life.... a value in the marketplace.
Thank goodness that some people do the low paid work that makes your life easier, eh?

There is almost always somebody who desperately needs that job though, so the role will stay at NMW.

It is totally luck, combined with genes and having the right circumstances/background.

Calling everyone who earns more than minimum wage lucky is lazy and dismissive. It ignores the reality that many people have to overcome huge obstacles, work extremely hard, make sacrifices, retrain, take risks or juggle multiple jobs to improve their situation. Luck and circumstance exist of course, but for most people they aren’t the whole story. Reducing progress or achievement to luck alone is extremely disrespectful. It diminishes the effort, persistence, resilience and sacrifices some people put in to move forward.

Life isn’t fair and people putting in the same effort don’t always get the same result, but it’s unrealistic to expect otherwise. And as for the jobs that ‘someone has to do’ - not everyone working in care, cleaning, McDonald’s or similar roles is there because they failed. Some may just want a proper living wage for doing what they already do. Assuming those jobs are what people do when they can’t succeed elsewhere is again bitter and judgmental. People have different priorities and sometimes those roles fit their lives or responsibilities better than ones with greater pressure would.