Can we stop acting like everyone has an equal capability to become well off?

[DeluluTaylor]

Based on the pension thread but not about OP. All this ‘why do people spend their whole lives on MW’ is so woefully ignorant. Some people don’t have a choice.
Neurodiversity
confidence
childcare availability
institutional racism
learning disabilities
trauma and it’s impact
Lifelong insecure housing
Being able to speak English but not write it
So many, many reasons why it is difficult to climb up the ladder. I’ve never been able to as I don’t have the right skills for management. But the world needs more worker bees than managers!
Who do they think should do these jobs?

I am not sure what your point is? That there should be a universal basic income and we all just pursue our hobbies?

Because they want to be social workers and not solictors?

@BlueJuniper94explain to me why not? Plus social work isn’t a hobby. It’s ruddy hard work. Heartbreaking and relentless.

Do you want a solicitor with the same level of training as a social worker?

I want to see a solicitor who wants to be a solicitor and not be all about the £££££ (although some people might say that is all they want in their job anyway).

Social mobility is so, so rare, and it always has been. We may not have the caste system but it’s true that for the vast majority of people, their job will reflect the social standing of the job of their great, great grandparents. Yes there are outliers but that’s exactly what they are.

Add to that since the welfare state there are multi-generations of those who have never worked, which is a recent-ish development. To be born into that kind of scenario and then become a doctor or lawyer would be virtually impossible, for all kinds of reasons.

So because some people have chips on their shoulders we should have 2 groups of people in the same profession doing the same tasks/jobs but one group have had all the training and qualifications and the other group just to fill the quotas?

How will this work in reality on a day to day basis?

I thought there had been studies done about this claim that there are multi-generations of people who have never worked... and it was a myth?

Probably not that many where several generations have never worked at all, but plenty who have flitted in and out of minimum wage work, relied on crime to survive, and essentially used the welfare state as their main income. In sociology this is known as the underclass, which is a bit of a horrible term.

Because that's what society wants to pay and how society values it. Pay isn't magically determined by a fairy that decides fairness. Pay is decided by what people are willing to pay for it. By what the employer wants to pay someone.

And it is sad that people should go though life thiknking their only value is what £££ they make.
A poor artist could make a wonderful piece of art that brings someone joy for years.
An abused child could have been helped by a low paid social worker, and managed to get their life on track.

In contrast, I am thanking Jeff Bezos for nothing. I am thanking the poorly paid driver from bringing stuff from his warehouses, that have been picked by a poorly paid picker.

Jeff bezos created the infrastructure and system for their labour to actual have meaning, value and have productive outcomes. They don't just work in a complete vacuum.

Yes, but he is only successful because of the hard and unrecognised work of the people at the bottom.
And that is a point many if us have been making in this thread. We need the people at the bottom for the cogs to turn. Yet those very same people are called failures, lazy, should try and do better etc.

And you talk like Jeff Bezos is a charity and pulling people out of hardship and helping them. Bullshit.

He pays them?

People at the bottom wouldn't turn the cogs without someone at the top giving them those cogs and ensuring they are turning at the right frequency.

How many years have you been on benefits? they aren't paid by cogs turners, but by people who chose to become successful = net contributors.

No one disputes that "cogs turners" should be able to live good enough lives and have sufficient income to house, feed and cloths themselves. But to say that low achievers are only there because of bad luck is simply stupid. Unless disability involved of course.

But people on MN seem to think people on the low rungs are failures etc.

So why do people on MN look down on the low paid workers so much? Think they can just "do better". It is literally why OP started this thread. People do not see the various barriers to just "doing better".

I think conditions at Amazon warehouses could be better.

But, I think even the warehouse staff get access to employee benefits and decent overtime pay

Delivery driving is outscored and super competitive so the pay is competed down to keep prices low.

I read a book recently called "Hired". A journalist went undercover in 4 different low paid jobs. One of them was in an Amazon warehouse (the others was a call centre, being a carer, and an Uber driver). Was an eye opener and worth a read.

You make a fair point. These jobs are hard and we need people to do them.

People don't look down on the low paid workers. People do look down on those who chose not to work and claim when they are able to do some work.

People, especially self made ones, detest people who don't make effort, coast through life, make poor life choices and end up at the bottom but then blame everyone around them for this failure.

Your example of a social worker - it is a challenging and important job, but it doesn't require too much qualification and it's poorly paid. Choose this job if you like it and which makes you happy, but accept that it's your choice to go into area which will never make you well off and don't complain about others who spend years studying, passing endless exams, training on the top of full time job, upskilling constantly, working very long hours, but then earning a lot. It's you own choice.

This thread is not about people who can work and choose not to. It is about people in NMW jobs. I saw the thread OP is on about, and people on here are notorious for questioning why someone is still in a NMW job in their 30s and beyond. Many times I have seen "what are you doing to earn more?". Many a thread where people go about about being on a certain salary at a certain age.
OP is bringing up the barriers to why someone is not earning more.

I have never seen anyone on NMW blame other people for their lot in life. Ever. Where are you seeing this? I have also never seen anyone on low pay complain about high earners. That seems to be a thing on here... the high earners claiming they are complained about. I have never seen it.

Interesting thread OP. On paper, I’ve beaten the odds by growing up poor, shit area, shit school etc but managing by age 40 to be on (just) six figures within financial services. No one in my family had ever earned even half that level. Luck has played a huge role for me as well as hard work and circumstances that went in my favour. By circumstances I mean things like -

having intelligent parents who massively encouraged reading as a child (which in itself is the baseline of general intelligence)

having parents who forced me to get a PT job at age 15 which created resilience, ability to work in a team and a strong work ethic at a young age (this seems to be a thing of the past vs us 90s kids?)

I could go on but you get the point.

What I would say is that at my level now, the level above me of super senior execs on the sort of £180k plus level is almost ALL privately educated males who are very similar to each other in background/values/personality/style so IMO even though social mobility can and does happen, there is a ceiling, other than the very very rare exception.

Prisoners work in Amazon warehouses, and get paid for it. A friend of a friend is currently in prison and has the job of driving others to and from work at Amazon. I think it’s a great idea, gives them some money for when they’re released, and some work experience to help them get a job.

In the UK?