To be the most shocked about the women possibly involved in it all

[Whereareallthegoodpeople]

With Epstein.

Men, i’m pretty much sick of at this point in my late 40’s, adore my Ddad and Dh is one of the good ones, but thinking back to being young and leering men and uncomfortable and scary situations.
But, rumours of women possibly being involved-obviously vile GM, but a supposed supermodel, JE’s personal assistants and women that seemed to work for him, reports of possibly owning adoption agencies etc. If all true, how on earth could women see children and young girls being abused and hurt and actively make that happen?? Where were all the safe people, why did no one notice and say or do anything?

Yes for money and power, but surely kids being SA and hurt draws the line!

Obviously not.

I know. I wonder where individual experience of spirutual universality would come into all that. Hard to get into a philosophical duscussion on a thread really.

I think everyone in his circle was groomed or conditioned into believing it was an acceptable setup for a wealthy man to hire beautiful young woman to be assistants and eye candy. I mean - why not? Companies hire young women into that role all the time—think saleswoman in luxury goods or private banking, for example.
Many of the women were aspiring models and it was on paper a great opportunity to get jobs and make connections with powerful people. The pay and perks added glamour.
Epstein didn’t want to hire sex workers, he very specifically wanted young healthy women with natural bodies and faces, no silicon or fillers. He wanted to replicate a trope as old as the ages- the young innocent beauty in thrall and submitting to older and powerful men.
The women helping find new victims were all part of the toxicity but in the moment it probably seemed more eccentric than illegal. Don’t forget he was extremely careful not to deal with under 18s after doing time, So these are adult women willingly working for him —- so to the outside eye, who might not stop to consider there was a trafficking angle, could probably be quite comfortable with it all.

When someone rich, powerful and influential manipulates the men and the women who work for them, those employees will be made to feel that they have to keep quiet about it for fear of repercussions.

Erm. Maxwell is not a man.

Yes, completely agree. There is always a powerful elite in every society that behaves like this when there are no consequences. What we see as deviant is normalised for them. It's not always financial power either. The religous institutions were brutal and operated with no empathy. Women and Men the same brutality when they had power and a sense of moral superiority. No consequences for invading armies result in brutality way beyond any military aims. Over and over again we witness that if there are no consequences for their behaviour, humans can reach depravity way beyond any level we can even imagine.

Ermm … just look at the abuse(sometimes even sexual) perpetrated by nuns against young women/children all over the world, the abuse perpetrated in the old eastern block orphanages, the midwives that were selling babies by the dozen.

I’m not saying women are as bad as men and I will never say that. However, they do have the capacity to be. Ignoring that is being part of the problem.

Not brainwashed, but given what we know about her father, abuse would have been normalised or minimised. Same for a lot of the people in Epstein's circle: if everyone else was doing it and the girls weren't actively objecting, where's the harm?

I feel sick writing this, but group think (and for the staff) turning a blind eye for their own self-preservation would be the key. Epstein knew how to enmesh people. And even if someone had a rare attack of conscience, they would be up against a large, well-connected and terrified set of powerful men whilst the victims had neither power nor money. Same as the rape gangs here in the UK. Even with prosecutions, we have not touched the sides of that scandal and I would love to see a UK-wide task force set up to address this phenomenon.

Going back to Epstein, there's a reason why Bondi is not conducting prosecutions right now in the USA. Over half of the current administration is implicated!

I think one thing to be frank about is being mentioned a lot is not actually necessarily being ‘involved in wrongdoing’ - JE wasa sleazy social climber and it seems was always finding influential people to invite to parties, offer money or sponsorship to their charities, basically ingratiate himself with the rich and famous - no idea if it was because he was just an A grade sleaze and a huge name dropper OR he was on some kind of a long view blackmail scam - maybe it was both !! Lots of people have openly said they have met him once or twice in as far as they were aware perfectly normal situations ( before it was known what an arsehole he was) and yet they are mentioned lots of times , as he spent copious efforts trying to get into their circles. I do think we have to be careful of just assuming ‘anyone ‘ mentioned lots was involved in the awful stuff -

why would that draw the line exactly?

Are you that convinced that only a woman can have a problem with the idea of kids being hurt? Are you for real?

I used to work in child protection. Women are often involved with child abuse, either directly or by colluding.

I don’t understand Kathy Ruemmier being friendly with Epstein post his conviction in 2008 and his serving 13 months for procuring a child for prostitution (and soliciting a prostitute).
Surely with her job she didn’t need him to bankroll her first class travel, her fancy handbags etc.

Evil comes in both sexes. Women are just as capable of being evil, it just slips under the radar more because we think of women as meek.

Dudn't care : sadly a lot of women don't care about VAWG happening to other women.

How often? I thought women directly abusing (sexually at least) was rare, physical more common...and sadly I imagine collusion could be quite common too.

Yes

Don’t forget he was extremely careful not to deal with under 18s after doing time, So these are adult women willingly working for him —- so to the outside eye, who might not stop to consider there was a trafficking angle, could probably be quite comfortable with it all.

• people helping him would have known about the 14yo conviction though..

Individual experience of spiritual universality: you mean religions which teach all souls are equal/people who believe that?

I think Hobbes was too pessimistic personally but there definitely is much evil in the world.

Look at the numbers of women who worked at concentration camp guards, as secret police for the Nazis and for the communists. Also the women of daesh. Gleefully participating in murder, terrorising, torture - no surprise sadly.

I agree partly but I think Hobbes was too pessimistic.

And stuff like genocide and the kind of sexual abuse referenced on this thread isn't necessary for self preservation (although eg. Rwandan were told stuff like 'kill this child now or he will come back to kill you as an adult'). It's just sadism. It's not like it serves some survival purpose.

I don't really think that women are more likely to be empathetic or caring. If some men are willing to overlook the humanity of some women for their own benefit, some women are as well. Not as often for sex. But manipulation, greed, cruelty, power,women are in no way immune to these things.

Things can be very bad among many 'elite' here and still immeasurably better compared to many other places & history. We mustn't lose hope.

There are a lot of studies showing women score higher on empathy ON AVERAGE, and biologically /evolutionarily as well as socially it makes sense, since in groups originally women had to care for kids & elderly, maintain social networks etc

But of course this in no way means that women can't often be evil and depraved. It may not be in a violent or sexual way but it can be just as damaging.

Do you think a lot of men would have abused Epstein's prisoners then, if given the opportunity? I suspect quite a lot, sadly...

And many ordinary women might have colluded.