To think that it IS inconsistent to judge men who buy sex but not women who sell it (excluding women who are trafficked/traumatised/acting from financial necessity)?

[Carla786]

The thread today where the OP claimed to have been an escort had quite a few posters saying that they don't judge women who sell sex, only men who buy it.

Now, I think that most women selling sex are trafficked and/or doing so from financial necessity and/or suffering from sexual trauma.

So I don't judge them. But I do judge the minority of women, who DO exist, who sell sex when they have other viable options, are financially OK, often educated etc. Ditto men. They are all contributing willingly to an industry which devalues sex, intimacy and the human body.

It does seem inconsistent to exempt women (and men) who sell sex completely from judgement. Denying that women can willingly prop up harmful industries isn't feminist.

AIBU?

Yes, Gambia is one place that happens. Men also buy sex from other men, of course, too.

I judge the men more because they don't know or care whether the woman is being trafficked, abused, is desperate or is the mythical 'happy hooker' that men who use prostituted women convince themselves is everywhere.

These things aren’t ’equal but opposite’ though. They never can be. Women will always be far more vulnerable in sexual situations than men, regardless of who is paying.

I don’t get as worked up about prostitution as others do on here. I don’t approve, but I don’t really judge either, and I think it’ll always carry on behind the scenes so there’s no point being horrified/outraged.

All we can really do is what we are doing, offering free sexual health services and a benefit safety net. What else is there?

Two women - both single mothers, with the same number of kids, same capacity to only manage a few hours of employment on minimum wage in school hours and reliant on UC for topping up so same entitlement to benefits. Both love their kids to bits and would do anything for them.

One of the women has never been abused, grew up with parents who loved her, knows she is valid and has self respect. Would rather get by on the tiny income allowed through state benefits than become a receptacle for strangers to use, does not become a prostitute, because her spirit has not been broken.

The other woman grew up abused, and went right on in to only ever abusive relationships in adulthood. Does not know what a healthy relationship is like, has no self esteem, has always been told she is worthless by everyone around her. As she believes herself to be worthless she does not see any point in not regularly surrendering her bodily integrity to being used by strangers. She has been broken by the world. She appears to have chosen prostitution "of her own free will" - she has not been trafficked or forced, but she was set on this path long before she was able to make a choice of any kind.

No woman who participates in the sex trade is a criminal, unless she actively works towards pulling in other women and girls. She is a victim. No man who participates in the (heterosexual) sex trade is innocent. Every punter or pimp is committing rape or rape by proxy because no "consent" in that context can exist uncoerced. There is a grey area for men in the homosexual sex trade as there will be some in each category.

Who would be left and how would you exclude society wide Patriarchy?

I agree with a lot of this, but this part :

'The other woman grew up abused, and went right on in to only ever abusive relationships in adulthood. Does not know what a healthy relationship is like, has no self esteem, has always been told she is worthless by everyone around her.'

• this is definitely the case for a lot of people in that situation but otoh I've come across women in that kind of situation in research who didn't seem to have that kind of abuse history. Someone might not have been abused, and might possibly have some amount of agency over clients (eg. Luckier ones seem to use escort agencies which might screen clients, ones with regulars have a bit more choice over who) but still feel pushed into the situation in one way or another : worried about children, wanting to give them more etc

It’s not inconsistent at all.

Just like junkies and drug dealers are not viewed the same.

HTH. (Although I would argue selling sex is far more stigmatised that buying it.)

It'll always carry on : trafficking needs to be cracked down on though. And benefits safety net clearly hasn't stopped quite a few women from being driven to it by poverty.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/sex-workers-cost-of-living-prostitution-b2899549.html

https://www.povertyalliance.org/guest-blog-how-the-cost-of-living-crisis-is-impacting-the-lives-of-women-who-sell-or-exchange-sex/

https://www.bigissue.com/news/social-justice/sex-work-disabled-people-women-cost-of-living/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-63714963#:~:text=Niki%20Adams%2C%20a%20spokesperson%20for,they%20cannot%20afford%20not%20to

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/apr/29/vulnerable-uk-women-forced-into-survival-sex-by-cost-of-living-crisis#:~:text=The%20crisis%20is%20also%20making,more%20demands%20on%20their%20services.%E2%80%9D

https://www.itv.com/news/wales/2024-08-28/growing-number-of-women-turning-to-sex-work-amid-colossal-rise-in-living-costs

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=www.politicshome.com/news/article/selling-sex-covid&ved=2ahUKEwjm-9bihemSAxU_dUEAHbcvFyo4ChAWegQILhAB&usg=AOvVaw3EVLIzIZ2_vlMdIVhMrDGh

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/may/22/universal-credit-hardship-linked-to-prostitution

https://news.sky.com/story/cost-of-living-crisis-pushing-more-women-into-sex-work-and-unable-to-refuse-dangerous-clients-12675932

https://hillheadreview.co.uk/female-students-turning-to-sex-work-amidst-financial-chaos/

If a woman chooses to sell sex, that's up to them and no judgement from me.

A man who chooses to buy sex can't really know for sure that the woman hasn't been trafficked or otherwise. This indicates to me that they don't really give a fuck about consent and I will absolutely judge them for that

Bonnie blue came to our school leavers celebration (schoolies, Australia) where thousands of drunk 18 year old boys are, to have sex with as many as she could, to exploit them to make money. They're young, naive, and don't understand what risk is involved. It also sends a poor message about respect for women. She has been baned from entering the country, so last year, went to Bali instead - where plenty of Aussie boys go for schoolies. Got thrown into jail & then out of the country.

She's a predator, not a victim.

I'd guess the majority of men would judge the sex worker more harshly than the men buying the sex. Maybe we naturally side with those we identify most with.

In a situation like hers (thinking high class escort like that escort Billie Piper played in the drama about her life years ago..Belle someone) I don’t judge the men buying it half as much as I do the creepy kerb crawlers who go out looking for a 20 quid shag and couldn’t care less whether the woman’s been trafficked or not. With high-end escorts, it feels much more equal, feels like the woman is in control, has chosen to do it and it’s just not as seedy and gross as street sex work is. However I wouldn’t really judge either of them in this situation. Provided he’s not cheating, they’re two consenting adults on fairly equal footing, choosing to do this. It doesn’t affect me in any way, so why would I care? It is a tiny, tiny minority of sex workers who fit this description though..

It's a case of different strokes, for different folks.

What's empowering to one woman isn't for the other.

What a vile woman. It's weird how many posters seem to treat her more as a victim than anything else. She's no better than a predatory man imo.

Well they shouldn't! But sadly I agree with you.

But by presenting yourself as the 'happy empowered hooker' you're providing cover for thousands upon thousands of evil pimps, sex traffickers and selfish punters who use and abuse vulnerable women and girls.

The 'happy hooker' cliché is the flip side of a monstrous coin with burqa wearers on the other. These women clutch their dehumanising black shroud and full face cover, screaming: It's my choice and it's empowering me! You don't get to tell me what to do with my body! I do what I want!

That thousands of Muslim women and girls across the world will be bullied, beaten, raped or even killed today for not covering up properly, is irrelevant to the enthusiastic burqa wearer. Not her problem. It's a bit sad, but she's not responsible at all for the suffering of other females.

Bonnie Blue and others like her, have contributed to a global culture where young white western women and girls are seen in many developing countries, and in some communities in the UK, as being 'cheap', 'easy', and willing to have sex with anyone and everyone.

This is both obviously, horribly false and very, very dangerous. It's likely to have been one of the contributing factors to the UK grooming (child rape & torture) gangs. Shocking judges' sentencing remarks often repeated the cruel and contemptuous words used by the rapists for their child victims. Such as 'white slags' or 'this is all you are good for'.

So, those choosing to be a prostitute/OnlyFans-Porn 'creator', or choosing to wear a burqa, when they're genuinely free to choose not to, is very, very selfish.

They're providing cover for the monsters.

So women should not dress how they wish nor do the work they wish because others don’t have freedom?

I always find it useful to compare misogyny to racism.

If a black person loves being paid a generously by a white person to behave like a house slave, including being called the n-word, verbally dehumanised and degraded, and lightly whipped (without causing injury), and says it's a great job with good hours and they shouldn't be judged for doing it...

How do we feel about that?

If a black person has an Only Fans where the purpose is to allow white people to call them racist slurs, hurl racial abuse at them, and pay them to perform racist stereotypes on camera, and they tout that as empowering and wonderful because they make a lot of money doing it...

How do we feel about that? Do we judge it? Are other black people entitled to judge it? Is it positive? Or is it contributing to encouraging and emboldening racism, and dehumanising black people?

But I do judge the minority of women, who DO exist, who sell sex when they have other viable options, are financially OK, often educated etc.

But who are you to say they have 'other viable options'? The OP of that thread you're referring to realised she could make money that way, so she did. For her it was a perfectly 'viable option'. Simple as that really.
Would I do it? No.
Do I judge her for doing it? Also no. Because it couldn't be any less of my business.

I've worked in strip clubs when I was younger. I never sold sex but did plenty of other stuff. I was the stereotype of working my way through college, and so were a lot of the other stuff. Stop viewing sex workers as poor helpless victims because you can't imagine someone intentionally choosing that job. I did it for the money, enjoyed it and made lifelong friends and connections. There is definitely the bad connected to the good, but I was never a victim. Most of us had other careers, families and lives.

So you didn't actual sell sex, then. You weren't so much a sex worker as a 'show men your naked body for money' worker. You didn't work in a brothel, or on the street, you worked in a strip club where men weren't allowed to touch you. Hm.

And honestly, what gives you the right to say 'Stop viewing sex workers as poor helpless victims because you can't imagine someone intentionally choosing that job.'?

That's a very sweeping statement. Are you saying people should never view any prostitute as a victim because you happened to enjoy being visual wank meat for men?

I hope you also don't judge drug dealers, then.

I made not have sold sex, but a lot of the girls that worked at my club did. I'm trying to have an intelligent conversation from around a complicated issue. I don't deny that horrible abuses happen in the sex industry, but I'm telling you that it's not everyone or even most. I will also say, women were by far the worse for how they treated me when they found out about what I did.

I don't think many (any?) people on this thread have said that every single woman in the sex industry is a victim. In fact, many (myself included) have said that some women should be judged for actively contributing to the dehumanisation of women. But the majority of women in the sex industry are trafficked, or there because of coercive, traumatic circumstances.

I'm also not sure why you'd expect women to think well of another woman who is perpetuating the idea that ultimately, women are just pieces of meat that men can rent-to-objectify?

If you switched out sex for race, would you really expect black people to think well of another black person who was being paid to perpetuate racist stereotypes for the amusement of white people??

i know women who have have happily had sex with men in return for a posh dinner or nice presents. They’ve been having fun and it’s all entirely consensual….