To think therapists are mostly charlatans?

[BlueJuniper94]

I've heard in real life of people who have made radical decisions/changes in their lives because of what a "therapist" has said to them. Things that have surprised me as it seems outside the scope of what I thought therapists are there to do (although it's perhaps not entirely clear what that is now).

Today I was listening to woman's hour where a woman being interviewed about her husband walking out on her and her kids tried to keep it from them for a month as per her therapists advice which she said looking back was the wrong thing to do. I am surely this therapist was handsomely paid nonetheless. Aibu?

CPN is a community psychiatric nurses / may have done some basic CBT not able to practice as a therapist and are not professionally accredited with BABCP

An NHS therapist has trained to a post graduate standard in depth for one year, and often has a core profession. They are expected to maintain their own professional development to maintain accreditation with BABCP. They may practice privately as a therapist as they are accreditation. They will also receive ongoing clinical supervision for their model of therapy. Usually CBT trained in the first instance they may have also specialised in the DIT, EMDR, IPT, MCBT, CFT. -These are all based on psychological models of therapy and not medical models of care which a CPNs training is mostly - they also tend to be based in a secondary care team.

In defence of Trauma focussed CBT:-

Often clients will have appraisals of the traumatic event that are inaccurate and misattribute occurrences wrongly - so exploring meanings for the client can be helpful to gain clarity. In the current time and space those appraisals are often not relevant or accurate eg belief they are at risk of dying/being attacked

The above should be explored properly while also acknowledging a validating the clients traumatic experience.

There is also a responsibility for the client to check they understand what has been said and to ask questions- this should be communicated to them and opportunities given to do so at key points

The tone of your post is generally sneering though, so it looks like you've tried therapy, it was not effective for you and you're completely dismissing it. But I don't think that because it wasn't helpful for you, you can blanket dismiss it for everyone "and their little neuroses". Therapy has in some cases helped people who have been to hell and back, and it's a wonder they are still walking this earth, never mind managing to hold down jobs and relationships.

I don’t know why “I disagree about the veracity and effectiveness of therapy” is such a difficult concept for some people to grasp. Defensiveness? FWIW I’ve also tried homeopathy and think that’s utter tripe as well, to the point where I would also “blanket dismiss” it. Is that okay with you? However, a friend swears by it for her border collie (true story) and somehow our viewpoints manage to co-exist in this big, wide world.

I’ve explained at least twice why I agree that therapy works for a certain subset of people, and also why (based on my own experiences of having years of psychotherapy, easily to the value of a large house deposit) I have personally concluded it’s a load of pompous, self-interested bollocks. You may infer from that what you will about me, but let’s just say that the fact that I manage to hold down a job, a relationship, act as a trustee of a charity and parent a profoundly disabled child is a constant source of amazement to those who know my birth family.

And yes, I wish people would try less self-regarding methods first, like volunteering, because ime they do actually work, and even if you’re unlucky (like I was with therapy) at least you’ve done something good for someone else, which is as good a place as any to start.

I don’t know why “I disagree about the veracity and effectiveness of therapy” is such a difficult concept for some people to grasp. Defensiveness?

huh? I was answering your statement that The premise that talking to a therapist can alter thought patterns does not remotely wash with me. As I wrote before, how and why would it?.

I was, literally, answering the questions you pose.

And if you think that therapy can work on people who don't blush at the idea of inflicting their little neuroses on a paid stranger and are self-interested enough to listen to themselves droning on about it isn't extremely rude, then your level of self awareness is woefully lacking.

Any thoughtful and reasonable person at this point would take a look at their behaviour and frankly apologise for showing such lack of civility.

and also why (based on my own experiences of having years of psychotherapy, easily to the value of a large house deposit) I have personally concluded it’s a load of pompous, self-interested bollocks.

Good god, why did you spend SO much money? Surely you should have quit well before then.

Fortunately all mine was on the NHS and I also found it very helpful. I did find it uncomfortable to talk about myself.

I had to give up my volunteer work so I had to go to therapy (and other MH support) sessions. Make of that what you will. I am back to volunteering once a week now.

@BringBackCatsEyes because as a private patient, you get to take full advantage of all the many flavors and varieties of snake oil that the therapy industry has concocted! All the better to take horrible advantage of unhappy people. I’ve tried common or garden counselling, schema, rewind and EMDR (for PTSD, specifically), CBT and finally psychodynamic. That was the funniest of all - the therapist took the “blank slate” bit so seriously she looked like someone chewing a wasp. Anyway, to me it was all bullshit in slightly different shades of brown. It eventually did at least give me the epiphany that I needed, although I was (and remain) very embarrassed that I pissed away so much money when it could have been used so much more productively. I get 100000% more benefit from my charity work.

And if you think that therapy can work on people who don't blush at the idea of inflicting their little neuroses on a paid stranger and are self-interested enough to listen to themselves droning on about it isn't extremely rude, then your level of self awareness is woefully lacking.

Lack of civility you say, without any apparent trace of irony, eh @ReleaseTheDucksOfWar . I won’t apologise for pointing out that a less egocentric response to trauma or poor mental health has a whole litany of benefits compared to paying a stranger who probably spends the session desperately trying to stay awake. In the vast tapestry of the human condition, one individual’s neurosis - whilst significant to them as a person - is really not terribly important.

I didn't think you'd be able to address the point that I was answering your question. Or to answer in any measured way.

Therapy clearly isn't for you - it's a shame you invested that much money for nothing. I hope you do find something that genuinely does help.

Sorry @ReleaseTheDucksOfWar I am grateful that you answered the question, but I was responding specifically to your final paragraph. And I still find it difficult to imagine that a conversation has quite such a startling effect on one’s psyche in the context of a couple of hours a week.

Thank you for your POV, I won’t be engaging with you any more.

I'd definitely agree that for some people it doesn't. For some people it genuinely does, though.

Out of interest did you find EMDR any use at all? I couldn't get on with psychodynamic therapy for the same reason as you. CBT did help to some degree because for me it did help to see events from a different perspective than the one that innately occurred to me, but once I'd got the hang of seeing different perspectives, you can do it for yourself.

What helped me most was some fairly brutal challenging about my behaviour because it made me realise that what I thought was obviously reasonable reactions weren't, which made me think about why I was reacting like that. Which made me realise there was a whole pile of impulses driving me that I simply wasn't aware of. I learned they were self-protective. Being aware of them made it possible to change them.... slowly and lay down new patterns of thought and behaviour. Much more constructive ones that led to a (slow) upwards spiral. It's still a work in progress.

But it doesn't alter the fundamental damage and I do wonder about EMDR. If I can find someone who will administer it - so far I've been turned down three times.

One of my inlaws is trained as a psychotherapist. They are lovely. But mad as a box of frogs!

I also have a friend who’s a highly qualified psychotherapist - equally nuts god love her!

Tbh @ReleaseTheDucksOfWar I thought EMDR was one of the biggest piles of bunkum (in a tough crowd!) It did nothing, but I was told that it didn’t work because of complex trauma that required a different approach. Ineffectiveness always seems to be the client’s “fault” - in this case, because I was too messed up! 😂

The “rewind” therapy was the one that made me cringe the most, because it was just not remotely credible. It reminded of another waste of money - hypnosis - when I pretended to be hypnotized, to save everyone’s embarrassment. (Yes, it appears I will blow cash on anything… 🙄) I genuinely wanted one of the psychotherapy techniques to help: intellectually and theoretically, it makes complete sense, which is probably why I kept flogging the dead horse.

The other methods - except psychodynamic, which was (imo) just silly - I can see why they might be effective for some people, but equally I think there are others who are just impervious to it, or who perhaps do it because it’s become a “thing”. I truly wish I wasn’t, and I am very glad it worked for you and that you are finding your way back to good health.

Urf, shame about the EMDR - I kept hoping that it would help.

I've heard of gestalt therapy but it just sounds ridiculous. Rewind sounds like it might help some but not others.

I think, really, that you might be right that some people are impervious to therapy; some sorts or all sorts.

Sadly it also seems that some damage happens too early or goes too deep to be reached or cured wholly.

But I do hope that you can find a way to a degree of peace. Agreed that sometimes helping others can be a really constructive way forward.

I’ve seen 3 I’m so far, two were excellent, one was awful.

I think the best outcomes are when the person is able to identify what their needs are and find an appropriately experienced counsellor. Eg one that specialises in bereavement or domestic abuse etc.

I didn’t say you did say therapists were charlatans. I was just pointing out that even medicine doesn’t work for everyone.

I can see how it wouldn’t work for you though if you think talking about things that have caused people serious pain and have severely impacted their lives is ‘inflicting their little neuroses’. As for people spending their money on the Community, well you could say that about many things that don’t benefit people in the slightest, like gambling or smoking.

It is silly to say that therapy can’t alter thought patterns just because it hasn’t for you. It certainly has for me and for many other people I know. There have been many studies on the benefits of therapy, once again something that hasn’t benefited you does not mean it wouldn’t benefit anyone. It’s the difference between anecdotal and statistical evidence. As for being suggestible I’m not sure if you’re implying they’re being somehow more easily manipulated than someone as ‘curious and intelligent as you’ as some kind of insult.

It is not disingenuous to state that in many cases medical treatments don’t work universally. It’s just self-evident. And yes it’s pretty impossible to do a random controlled trial for therapy. It does mean that self-reporting is an element of the assessment. It may not be the gold standard for statistical analysis. However, there have been countless studies that have shown benefits. From an anecdotal standpoint as I say I have known many people who have benefitted from therapy, which rather trumps your anecdotal evidence of one person’s perspective.

Recommending people also speak to their friends, get fresh air and eat a good diet can also be an important part of the signposting element of therapy, so it’s not either/or. But people who end up in therapy have often tried many other things first before ending up in therapy.

And the tyrannical thinking comes out yet again in your post, i.e. it means either that you didn’t have the right therapists or that it wasn’t right for you. Thank you for proving my point so eloquently.

As for your overblown description of my statement as tyrannical thinking, I don’t know what you’re talking about. How is it wrong to say it wasn’t right for you? Doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with you or you’ve failed if that’s what you’re assuming I mean. Or that the therapists weren’t the right ones for you. What’s wrong with that? It’s a very subjective thing as to what therapy or therapist works best with what person.

As you say you’re entitled to your opinion obviously. But as I say, you thinking therapy doesn’t work because it didn’t work for you isn’t logical.

So pleased for your positive experience CatsEyes.

I agree if something isn’t working then it is probably not a good thing to continue to pursue.

I reached the conclusion that my time is better spent looking outwards to others, rather than reflecting on things I cannot change

Hmm seemed helpful then, the above is a reasonable therapeutic outcome - you learned to crack on and let go of ruminating - acceptance of fixed occurrences. champion that

But your thinking is fixed? Weeeeellll, least it changed about therapy you crack on

My first thought exactly....

the BACP doesn't "licence" anyone. Nor is it a regulatory body. There is absolutely no requirement for qualified therapists to belong to the BACP (or any other membership organisation, for that matter).

sorry that made me laugh out loud!! Yikes.....

No, but if you're looking for a therapist, and you're looking at someone who is BACP accredited, you know that they have taken a BACP accredited or approved training pathway and that they meet certain quality standards and have signed up to an ethics code. Should they behave unprofessionally, the client has the option of reporting to their accrediting body.

Exactly....

Yes, there can be recourse if you’re with one of the professional bodies. Accreditation most certainly doesn’t make you a better therapist. It’s largely a money making scheme for the bacp.

I don’t know about the BACP accreditation process or requirements @Soberinthecity but I think decent post grad training with clinical placement followed by, for example the BABCP’s annual accreditation process (which isn’t as expensive as BACP) requiring submission of clinical supervision records, ongoing training and requiring a therapist to ensure their safeguarding and risk training is up to date, insurance and ICO registration is up to date, and with spot check practice audits at any time, does go some way to ensuring diligence. It doesn’t make people better therapists but it does demonstrate a desire to practice ethically and to commit to supervision and further training. Not a guarantee of course but less likely to do damage through total ignorance having done a weekend course in some Woo.

100%. unfortunately there will be people who do call themselves therapists after completing an online course - that's their choice, and the client's as it is not a regulated profession.

My first 2 counsellors were both accredited. One charged £150 20 years ago to do nothing - my fault for not understanding the process of psychoanalysis, hers for taking my cash without doing any sort of assessment/allowing me to ask questions. The other much more recently (BACP accredited) was completely unethical. I was advised to report her but I didn't...This time I knew what I was looking for, but also I knew in my gut it wasn't right. My current one is good - BACP & UKCP registered but not accredited and has no plans to, yet.