How are Grammar schools so much better than comprehensives if they get the same funding?

[Karma1387]

Me and my partner are in a situation where we are looking to relocate in order to move to a Grammar school area. This is going to involve us both having to find new jobs and coordinate a house move at the same time.

Some of my family disagree with our decision to move for the sake of grammar school and don't see how they can be better than a normal comprehensive school.

I am hoping some people on here will have some knowledge on how grammar schools achieve so much better than comprehensives?

Also anyone with experience with grammar schools they could share? From what I have read the class sizes aren't much different to comprehensives and they get the same funding. Is it literally just a case of because they do the 11+ they tend to only take on the more academically inclined kids. Does this translate to less bad behaviour etc compared to comprehensive schools?

The move is going to be stressful with us both trying to find new jobs plus moving further away from both our families I want it to be worth it! Our local comprehensive is awful for results and we want to give the kids the best opportunities.

Personally I would rather homeschool and fully keep them out of the school system but my partner is very against this and is determined we need to move to a grammar school area so any advise to aid our discussion would be amazing!

Are we being unreasonable to relocate for the possibility of grammar school?

They must be better - otherwise kids wouldn’t strive to get into them, and you wouldn’t have parents shelling out on private tutors to get their kid through the 11+ exam. It’s two tier education and is grossly unfair - the kids who don’t get in are effectively left on the scrap heap.

We are Chatteris.

I have been having a look at Soham near Ely recently as I have some nephews who have been to both the primary and secondary and they speak very highly of both. The price difference on houses is a bit of an issue for us but I am wondering if I could apply out of catchment for there and just travel until we can afford to move.

Being closer to Cambridge would benefit my partner as he works in Cambridge so it would cut his commute drastically.

But of course no guarantees when applying out of catchment that you will be accepted!

Partner is from Chelmsford so he hates living in the fens. If he had his way we would move close to Cambridge or back to Chelmsford!

This!

I encountered a few lairy teens recently who were being obnoxious. When I asked them to stop one of them (boy) pretended to burst into tears then kept telling me to shut up, the others also started screaming. All very well but what if you were trying to teach that rabble and they were all calling childline and screaming for no reason. It would be impossible. Cut those out of your intake and you can actually spend time teaching those kids who want to learn.

My son went to a naice comp and said the teachers spent at least 20 minutes of each 45 minute lesson on crowd control.

Exactly, they have the same issues as all other schools. 32 kids in a class, bullying, drug taking, sex and other misbehaviour. Same as private schools apart from small class sizes. All schools have these issues.
I grew up in an area where there were good secondary comps with insanely big houses, lots of people who went private and lots who were at grammar and we all went to the same parties. The grammar children were not any different, neither were the private or comp. We were all doing the same stuff. There were good and bad and very bad eggs among all three sets of kids. Outcomes are very varied. In terms of income now we are all 40 plus, it is totally varied and not related at all to which type of school they went to.

Can only go on personal experience

As many have stated parents of grammar kids are committed , focussed and on board

Ignore the negative comments re grammar schools

They are fabulous opportunity for brighter students whose families are fully supportive and engaged

My school didn't do A Levels. The local FE college did, which is where I went after GCSEs, like everyone else in my county, to do A Levels (or an NVQ or a BTEC).

I think this is also another interesting thing about Mumsnet though, everyone thinks their experience is unique. I once saw someone say on here that only low achieving kids went to FE college, completely oblivious to that being the only A Level provision in some areas of the country. Likewise the idea of having a choice of school is not usual in many areas of the country where it might already take you the best part of an hour to get to the nearest one. It's the same with grammars. The reality is there are hardly any so the OP is looking at very limited locations.

Are there poor schools? Sure. But I've also seen schools described as bad on the basis of their location and intake. And no school is bad for every child in it. Maybe it has great SEN or pastoral support. Etc.

Well you didn't mention you didn't do the A levels at school.

It's not that unusual for kids to go to the FE colleges, and often uni after that.

The independents that compete with them will set you back over £100k for secondary though - that's a massive incentive for the effort isn't it? At least said effort is time limited whereas you have to go on earning the wonga for years.

My eldest 2 children are Y7 and Y9 and both go to grammer school. They are surrounded by like minded kids who are driven and keen to learn. They like school and are thriving. The stiff competition is good if they are academical, it keeps them on their toes!

Have you been in a primary school recently? Many are lovely. I think you'll feel better once you see them..

I'd say these early years are really important for social development.

I don't understand why moving schools would be terrible but not starting them til year 3 would be fine. I'm not trying to be awkward, just genuinely confused by the difference given you are heaping on the pressure with your timeline.

I mean this kindly but I think your raging pregnancy hormones are in play here. And I say this as a woman who sobbed uncontrollably (for several days) over a chicken at 38 weeks.

I think your desire to stay at home might also be a factor. But you may not feel this way after juggling a baby and a two year old for the next two years.

Don't forget that being in work (doesn't need to be full time) also keeps you up to date with skills and expectations in terms of job searches and contacts (and other young people) which can be important for helping your children gain experience or exposure to the world of work.

If you move to an area with limited employment prospects you make it harder for them to stay after 18 - and there's no guarantee they'll go to uni.

If I were you I'd get the next year or so out of the way, get back into some work and see what you could afford in the area you want.

I'd also have a bash at home schooling. I've done teaching. Thought might enjoy it. I've successfully taught other people's children. Lockdown and my own - awful. They are good kids who enjoy school and learning but crossing the boundaries or home and school/ parent and teacher was a disaster.

They arent better. Talented kids will do well wherever they are. Mediocre ones will be mediocre.

I mean it's due to academic ability though? The other kids wouldn't have been able to keep up in the grammar

How do you work all that out After all as said so many times here if they have brains they will do well anywhere. And if they don't they are working at the right level for them in a less academic school

You might get some backlash against the “more committed” comment.

But won't a talented kid succeed even more and thrive in an environment that pushes them to achieve their best? And at a school that has extracurricular and supercurricular opportunities that can help them deepen their knowledge and expand their horizons?

No not better. My previous post highlights the reasons but that does not equate to ‘better’. Everyone has different skills and some are not suited to a school environment and flourish later.

Here is my very honest opinion, having worked in both.

Grammars are not better.
Teachers are not more committed. I have found the opposite. Some teachers expect to put in less effort, as the kids effectively teach themselves. They rely on parents piling on pressure, so they tend to be less committed to teaching and learning, more just turn up and teach. And they complain more about anything extra they are asked to do.
Class sizes are just as big. I have 32 average in all my classes at my current grammar.
The experience can be less fun. At the school I am currently at, many students have a long commute, no friends local to them, and there is no real house system or community. It is much more about academics, and less about the whole experience.
For these reasons we chose the local comp for my own kids. I wanted them to place overall happiness over results.
It is the same curriculum, the teachers are no better qualified, and often less enthusiastic, with less experience with SEN and behaviour, and the overall experience is not something I would aim for.
But that is just my experience. I have taught in 5 comps (across 12 years) and 1 grammar (for 6 years).

I don't think anyone is saying that grammar schools don't have their advantages.

Just that moving to an area you don't like for a child who hasn't even been born yet and with no way of knowing if that child will be academic, isn't the best strategy. And that should they not get in some 11 years later (assuming the grammar system is still in place) might result in a worse option.

Imagine being a brainy kid in a classroom where bad behaviour is rife and their peers are, on the whole, disinterested and disengaged.

Imagine the same child in a classroom of fully engaged, bright kids who are eager to learn.

Which environment do you think they will thrive in?

@Karma1387 not necessarily as if they don’t get in then the remaining local schools will be like the old secondary modern schools. You are probably better choosing an area with a great comprehensive school.

Grammar schools won’t have as much money as a comprehensive as they won’t get as much pupil premium funding.

The students have passed an exam so will cope in big classes and old fashioned teaching. I went to grammar school & it was very much teacher talks & students make notes & get on with the work. Pace is fast so you just have to keep up. It might be different nowadays obviously. So I don’t think it’s better teaching, just students who can generally understand the work.

I haven't visited the ones in our town. The results arent great and the amount of complaints from parents about lack of SEN provision as well as support with bullying etc has been enough to know we don't want out kids to go to the ones near us.

Not starting them until year 3 isn't ideal (wouldn't be an issue if we lived in a area with middle schools) but I really struggle with the idea of my 4 year old being at school full time or being 5 and being made to sit and learn about fractions and factoring etc (this is what my 5 year old nephew is currently doing) i just think they are so young for such a small amount of time it makes me really sad to think of them being stuck at school at such an early age. But I do know keeping them off until yr 3 when we don't have middle schools around here will cause its own issues hence it isn't something we have decided or agreed on. My partner is very very against home schooling.

Ive been working 2 nights a week since I finished maternity leave with my first son. I just gave up my actual managerial job and dropped all the way back to the bottom but I have still kept a slight foot in the door even if I have no intention of going back to retail management.

Sorry if this sounds blunt but why is your partner against homeschooling? Does he think that you can't do it?

I homeschooled my boys and then they went to the local grammar. My boys had lots of opportunities to play- we were outdoors most of the time but when it was time to study they applied themselves well. They were also a part of Scouts and various other sports clubs.

Homeschooling is exhausting but rewarding. Back then I was a Primary School teacher...

Thank you. Very helpful to get an opinion from someone who teaches in one but didn't send their kids to one.

A mixture of he wants our kids to succeed academically (to a high level if they are capable) and he doesn't think even if I was fully dedicated I could offer the same level as a grammar school.

He also worries about the social aspect and them not coping if they decided to transition to state school.

Honestly I also think he lives in hope that I will change my mind about a career and go back to a full time career although he woukdn't admit that!