How are Grammar schools so much better than comprehensives if they get the same funding?

[Karma1387]

Me and my partner are in a situation where we are looking to relocate in order to move to a Grammar school area. This is going to involve us both having to find new jobs and coordinate a house move at the same time.

Some of my family disagree with our decision to move for the sake of grammar school and don't see how they can be better than a normal comprehensive school.

I am hoping some people on here will have some knowledge on how grammar schools achieve so much better than comprehensives?

Also anyone with experience with grammar schools they could share? From what I have read the class sizes aren't much different to comprehensives and they get the same funding. Is it literally just a case of because they do the 11+ they tend to only take on the more academically inclined kids. Does this translate to less bad behaviour etc compared to comprehensive schools?

The move is going to be stressful with us both trying to find new jobs plus moving further away from both our families I want it to be worth it! Our local comprehensive is awful for results and we want to give the kids the best opportunities.

Personally I would rather homeschool and fully keep them out of the school system but my partner is very against this and is determined we need to move to a grammar school area so any advise to aid our discussion would be amazing!

Are we being unreasonable to relocate for the possibility of grammar school?

Better children, better parents, better teachers.

Ah, sorry my bad. I would personally wait it out until when they’re around 8 and see if they’re grammar material then decide. Or they could even sit the exam as out of catchment and move into county once they get the results.

Having read your updates, it seems like the main issue you’re going to have is that you and your partner have completely different values in terms of education.
If you want to home educate, why don’t you also have a look at what groups are running where you are so you can see if there are plenty of activities for your children and lots of other home educating families. Then you have a better idea of how viable it is.
We deliberately moved to an area where there are lots of other home educators so there would be a choice of things to do and lots of potential friends for the kids. There are usually local Facebook groups and WhatsApp groups for each area.
Home educating does involve quite a lot of organisation and research, why not see if it’s genuinely something you can manage? FWIW, I was totally like your dh pre kids, but then mine just didn’t fit those ideas so I had to change!

Yes- I grew up in one of the poorest areas of the country with one of the lowest rates of transition to university. I still never got duffed up for being clever and got one of the top 5 A level results in the country in one of my subjects, went to the Mumsnet-approved Russell Group uni, I have 3 degrees. I mentored kids (all academic and engaged) in 'rough, northern' comps 25 years ago, I had a job for years where I went into schools with low rates of transition to university. When you've been into one school, you've been into one school. It's pretty unpleasant to write off whole schools full of kids. The thing that makes the difference for almost all children is parents that are engaged, or where they are not, schools that can put some of that engagement and support in for them. And the guy who probably earns the most money out of all of the people I went to secondary school with owns a scaffolding company and failed most of his GCSEs.

In fact DP is pretty rough and Northern himself and still managed to get 2 degrees.

OP you can have a look at Progress 8 scores of schools you are interested in. P8 will tell you what a school does with its intake- the 'added value' it has. You're looking for a score above zero to show a school improves the attainment of its intake. The most popular comp near us that likes to pretend it's a grammar (byzantine admissions process with loads of fake scholarships) has a P8 of zero. It does precisely nothing with its intake. You're also assuming your kids will be traditionally academic. Mine are both clever but one also has ASD which means things other than the school's exam results are going to be important. I did not know this when she was 2. You need to look at holistic measures of achievement and support, especially given as you seem to really value the pastoral side and activities beyond traditional academics.

Have you and your husband been to many schools lately? There is nothing to stop you signing up for some open days and having a look around, they don't check how old your kids are. You might be pleasantly surprised, and IME heads are usually very well aware of their challenges, can talk about stretch, and will communicate the 'flavour' of their school very well.

You seem very hung up on not disrupting friendship by changing schools but from what I've seen of grammar areas, there's a lot more variance in the schools children move onto at secondary.

Many of those who don't make the grade (despite extensive tutoring) go to private school. They don't move on with the majority of their friends like other places.

From another perspective, I have family in Devon. One child was extremely academic, went to grammar, got top grades but it did not prepare him socially for university or the world of work.

The other failed by a small margin. Had never been a confident child. Went to the local comp and it was so much better than passing and hanging onto the bottom rung would have been. Her confidence soared for being in a more appropriate group. She left with excellent grades and a much better handle on how to be around different people.

You are approaching your current issues backwards.

You don't like where you are so decide where suits based on geography, affordability, commuting times and then narrow down schooling options.

Personally from what I've seen of the pressure applied to kids to pass the 11 plus, I'd pick somewhere with a couple of reasonable state schools.

You also need to consider that with more than one child, you may not be able to offer them the same education if one is much more academic than the other.

Moving to an area you don't want for schools they may never attend and limiting your choice of other schools is very much an 'eggs in one basket' plan.

If your school did A levels it wasn't that rough. One of the comps I mentioned earlier has a progress rating on 0.78

As they are quite little you have a chance for the "road to Damascus" moment - and by that I mean the conversion to Christianity and church attendance each week. May need to go the full monty and become Catholic as there are far more catholic secondary schools. Behaviour is often better as parents are supportive and if your DC's have done a few years of sitting on a wooden pew for an hour every Sunday they will sit still in class.

Most kids who get into grammar school have at least two if not all three of the following:

1. academic ability
2. willingness to work hard
3. Supportive (sometimes pushy!) parents

You can’t pass the 11 plus otherwise.

So obviously those schools will do better.

@Karma1387 I haven't read all posts, just yours.

This stuck out at me:
We have no desire to live in Lincolnshire besides it's a cheaper area with grammar schools. If grammar school wasn't on the cards we wouldn't move there.

So please don’t move to somewhere you don't want to be – just for the supposed value of a school system you might not be able to access (if your DC don’t pass the exam at aged 10). Especially not Lincolnshire which I promise is an area you need to have a reason to be in IMHO. There's a reason property is cheap there.

Where do you live now? OK if you don't want to say obvs. Does your DH work remotely or does he need to have a job somewhere specific?

I agree with the PP who said you should find a place you want to live and look at what you can afford, what the schools are like.

You do seem to have some concerns that IME are unfounded. You have a very negative view of comprehensive secondary schools – but you should know that the majority of them offer a decent or better education to most of their students. My three DC went to the local comp, not even a particularly highly rated one, and gained GCSEs, A levels, two of them went on to uni. Their lessons were not a constant battle by teachers to be heard above the noise and disruption. If you haven't been into a secondary school lately you might be surprised.

ETA: Btw if you are thinking about home ed, it’s not simply about one parent not working and consequent loss of income (and career progression if that matters to you); there will usually be additional costs. You say you are not a teacher at all so you might well need to access tutors or HE programmes, which cost money. At secondary level for sure.

Minus 0.78 that is

Hmmm, that’s interesting, especially as your first post focussed on London. I wonder where exactly you grew up? I grew up in one of the most deprived areas of inner city Manchester and went to Oxford by studying off my own back and disassociating from the total carnage in front of me. I have a Masters and a Doctorate. Life in a deprived Northern comp in the 90s was hell on earth for anyone with aspirations / brains / talent, and I’ve yet to meet a fellow traveller who doesn’t agree. It was akin to being inside a prison - an all pervading atmosphere of latent violence / drug taking and the most appalling behaviour (yes I have visited an actual prison- had several relatives detained at Her Majesty’s pleasure over the years) with a permanent police presence on site. I understand if you’ve never experienced it, but if your school was anything like mine you would never, ever allow your bright, happy child to darken its door. I hope things have changed for the better, but in some of these areas I doubt it somehow…

You just cannot tell though what school type will suit.

We moved to where we are for a specific primary- chose another one and thinking a high school for DS.

DD did grammar suited her perfectly until year 11 where she outgrew it before going to the sixth form of the school we loved to get DS into

He neither suited grammar nor the high school we moved for and ended up going to another one which on paper logically wouldn’t be the right choice but absolutely suits him down to the ground

How is this even a question? They get great results because they filter out the unacademic kids, and the kids whose parents don’t value education.

Be aware that your children may not pass the 11+, then you’re stuck with even worse secondary moderns (not as good as regular comps as the brightest kids have been skimmed off).

YABU to home educate at secondary level: could you honestly educate them well enough to get 10 good GCSEs and three good A Levels? If not, send them to school.

I went to grammar school.
They do better because they take the cleverest kids. The ones that whizz through academics and have a reading age 10 years above.naturally those people get better gcse and a level results. They also push the kids more and focus on academics.
I actually left my grammar school in year 9. They had terrible pastoral care, lots of girls were self harming. It was very intense. I hated it so much my mum let me leave.
When I went to my local comp i was doing work I already did in year 8.
Anyway, the outcomes... I can safely say it is more to do with the individual than the school.

I have friends from my local comp who own a chain of hairdressers, drs, one is a top PR lady, I am a high earner. I have friends from grammar who are lawyers, secretaries and housewives.
I don't think going to grammar school influences lifetime happiness, thats my take on it. And thats what I want for my kids, happiness and fulfilment. And going to grammar school is not related to that metric from what I have seen. In fact it is so pressured that it is the opposite.

Please follow your heart
Grammar School system is fantastic
Smaller class sizes / dedicated teachers / engaged parents/ misbehaviour dealt with quickly
As your kids are young you can focus on 11+ prep to ensure their success - many tutors available plus home prep

I went to grammar school and 2 out of my 3 children have been (2 still there). My eldest HATED school barely passed her GCSEs but moved schools to do her A levels and has absolutely knocked it out the park and has a great city career. My middle child at grammar is thriving she’s a really academic high achiever. My youngest got in on sibling link appeal I didn’t want her to go and now she’s struggling but it’s too late to move her. Grammars take the highest papers at GCSE whereas other schools tend to focus on the foundation papers where for many subjects the highest grade is a 6. I wish to god I’d never sent her there but it is what it is. I think if your child is naturally bright and passes entry exams without being tutored then grammar is a good way to go. If they’re being tutored for the 11+ and still barely passing practice papers then don’t do it to them. Let them be top at a school they will thrive at than bottom at a school or be prepared to carry on paying for tutors. We are very lucky the schools in our catchment are all relatively good across the board.

We live in a town in cambridgeshire/fenland area. If we moved a bit closer to the cambridge part we would find some reasonably good primary and secondary schools. The issue is the house prices are a lot more than what our mortgage is currently and with only 1 of us working full time it would be a real stretch to afford it! Equally me going back full time whilst kids are at nursery isn't viable.

My partner is a retail manager and realistically needs to stay with the same company as the others pay way way less. This is the biggest issue I have noticed when looking lincolnshire way as there doesn't seem to be an abundance of jobs!

I think we need to find a compromise and that may involve moving somewhere more expensive or me trying to put DS in a out of catchment school and commuting him there.

Thank you for the input regarding homeschooling. I know there would be a lot to take into account if I went down that pathway. It wouldn't be a decision taken lightly.

I should add our class sizes are between 29 and 32 and massively over subscribed. SEN provision is awful and there’s not much help given to those children that aren’t quite making the cut.

Not my experience of grammar schools at all. I think they vary massively.

Grammar schools do not have smaller class sizes on average unless they’re woefully undersubscribed.

This is the biggest issue I have noticed when looking lincolnshire way as there doesn't seem to be an abundance of jobs!

Yes this is one of the things. Sorry to be so down on Lincs (I am not really) but the rural areas are very low on employment opportunities – that's one reason why houses are cheap. So I wouldn't advise moving there for the reasons you state and no others.

Fenland – what so March area? or more Ely? Have you looked at local primary and secondary schools? I do think basing the next 16 or so years on the views of others and what their DC say may not be the best idea.

Regarding homeschooling. There are lots and lots of resources and tutors available if we went down that path.

My partner isn't likely to relent on homeschooling anyway. The most I would proabably be able to convince him on is doing it until yr 3 and even that would be hard to convince him.

Yes agree. My grammar school had 30 in a class. Why would the class sizes be smaller @PeacePilgrim ? And misbehaviour dealt with quickly? What, in every selective school – and no comps? Maybe in the school you know. That's fine. But it doesn't mean every grammar school surely.

Are you talking about state grammar schools or the ones with "grammar" in the name that went private in the 60s?

I'm only familiar with the Kent grammars but they definitely don't have small class sizes. They are heaving - every place filled and continually growing out of their buildings. I taught a KS3 class for a while that didn't have enough desks! (Fortunately there was always at least one girl at a music lesson...)

Oh and behaviour wasn't always well dealt with because they didn't think they needed proper systems - mostly they didn't - but a determinedly naughty child could get away with a lot.