To think male nursery workers should be banned for safety reasons?

[Carla786]

I KNOW most men who work in them are fine but sexual abuse in nurseries is overwhelmingly committed by men. No more men, much less abuse risk.
Yes we need more CCTV etc to watch bad women but it cuts SA risk immeasurably.

We can still have male primary teachers etc kids are old enough to speak up then.

And yes, you can ban on the basis of sex for safety reasons. In women's refuges, eg.

Agree. It’s odd how the focus is only on CSA. There are many other forms of child abuse including neglect. We can’t really say it’s overwhelmingly men when we are only looking at 8% of all child abuse.

Childcare jobs, and club leaders, sports coaches, churches etc etc. Anywhere there is access to children. Do you propose we ban men from ever having any position where they can be around children. The “studies” are bullshit and to suggest paedophiles don’t target women so they can have access to children in a family is laughable. Familial abuse isn’t about opportunism, but even if it were, it accounts for over 90% of abuse so if you want to protect children, we should be banning men from homes, because that would be far more effective.

You keep talking about risk, but let’s put that into perspective. There are approximately 2.5 million children currently in nurseries. The number of male nursery workers is about 11,000. If they were so big a risk that they should be banned from taking the job, there would be stories like this happening every single day. It would be an epidemic. 60% of all abuse of children in nurseries is carried out by men. That leaves 40% that isn’t. What is the solution when women do it? And what is the actual number of children who are abused in nurseries? Bizarrely these figures aren’t collected, but it is fair to say the risk of it happening is very low generally.

We need to improve safeguarding for all children in all settings being looked after by everyone. No person should ever be with a child alone, there is absolutely no need for that. We need to improve the vetting system because frankly the disclosure process is laughable.

I feel really sorry for any guy working in nurseries at the moment. Every one of them will be being looked at as if they are paedophiles.

Some people are not suited to look after children. We should focus on individuals rather than deciding that one aspect of a person precludes them from the job.

I dont think so, I imagine abusers hide it pretty well and try to blend in

Yes, impossible in other words.

Except that we do know that men are vastly more likely to be paedophiles than women, and that paedophiles seek out opportunities to work with children, and that only a tiny % of nursery workers are men.

If you eliminated all males from working in nurseries statistically speaking some of those will be paedophiles, and there would be a negligible impact on the workforce overall.

I deal with LA safeguarding referrals for our organisation.

The trend for referrals of all types for EYFS & KS1 is women, and it becomes increasingly more likely to be a man the older the child is.

Referrals for female staff generally involve negligence that has lead to injury, for male staff (particularly at secondary level) it tends to be misuse of force, or use of physical discipline such as pulling a child back into a classroom.

SA has never crossed my desk, abuse of other forms does - and combatting it according to this thread would involve just banning education staff.

Here are a couple of possibly uncomfortable questions. I don’t intend to minimise cruelty and neglect towards children. It’s disgusting and those women truly deserve what they get.

But firstly, women make up the vast majority of early years workers, and you’ve identified three female early years workers convicted of abuse and neglect. Men make up a tiny proportion of early years workers yet I think, since Christmas, I’ve read about three different convictions of men for sex abuse in nurseries. Certainly two.

Secondly, is cruelty and neglect as serious as rape and sexual abuse? Are they crimes of equivalent magnitude?

Another sensible post, backed up by stats. Thank you.

My DP is a primary school teacher and this thread is so depressing to read. He chose to teach primary over secondary because a headteacher whose advice he sought – a woman – told him that primaries were woefully lacking male teachers and that it was good for children with absent fathers to have male role models, so he could make a positive contribution. Decades on, he has done exactly that. But according to this thread, he must've been drawn to working with younger kids because he's a pervert with a secret agenda, purely because he's a man. 😡

I have a son and I completely agree with the OP.

I would never, ever leave my children with a man I don't know. Men are statistically proven to be more of a danger to both women and children than women are.
It's so idealistic and frankly disgusting that many on this thread would rather have a "male role model" in the nursery (when it's factual that many pedophiles seek out these settings to offend, so how can you be sure you're looking at a good 'male role model') than want to protect their baby/toddler against the risks.

What percentage of female carers are abusive vs what percentage of male carers? Pointing at the relatively tiny numbers of bad women doesn’t change the fact that there are very high numbers of bad men.

You're missing my point. Crimes against children are committed in nursery settings by both sexes. The answer isn't bans, it's better safeguarding.

I can’t find stats covering all forms of abuse broken down by sex.
The only abuse where it is broken down is CSA. Which is only 8% of all child abuse.

It doesn’t necessarily follow that the other 92% of child abuse, and all disabled and elder abuse would show the exact same pattern of offending as CSA.

Not at all. It’s about where it is safe to draw a line, balancing risks.

Primary school teachers are not presented with non verbal children’s naked genitalia throughout the day. It’s very different.

Great that your DH wants to be a positive role model for kids. I’m sure he wouldn’t minimise valid safety concerns either.

Then why minimise it?

We need to protect children from all types of neglect and abuse including SA but not only SA. We also absolutely can't be complacent and assume that women never neglect or abuse children because that is how some of them who have done it got away with it for so long.

Safeguarding needs to be reviewed and changed and funded correctly to protect our children.

Banning men is too simplistic and doesn't properly address the major safeguarding issues which if not changed can and will lead to other kinds of abuse.

Are they more likely to be paedophiles or more likely to be caught? Is there still a bias that makes it less likely for women to be identified? We do hear about more women paedophiles these days, so it seems it's coming more out into the open. I suspect it's more common than we know.

Even if not SA, there are other types of abuse that can do just as much damage to children. Hence why I made it a point to find a way to stay home with my own children. I didn't trust anyone with them so young.

Whilst I do understand the concerns I don’t think a male ban is the solution.

As someone mentioned previously what about teenagers. Should male secondary school teachers be banned as well? Do we need to ban men as sports coaches as well? There have been plenty examples of abuse in these situations. What about banning men in healthcare roles? Again plenty examples of abuse. I feel like every day I’m reading another story about a policeman abusing his position of power to abuse someone. Should men be banned from the police?

I don’t know what the solution should be but I suspect it is far more complex than just an outright ban of men. Better safeguards (like nurseries being designed without places that children can be alone with staff 1-1, better staffing levels, etc) would help protect all children from all adults and not just men.

As for the wider societal issue, I have no idea how we fix this.

Surely you would also not leave your child with a woman you don't know?

Oh ffs of course men are more likely to be paedophiles…that is batshit.

You really think in this sexist misogynistic patriarchal society that there are female paedo rings going undetected in greater numbers than men?!

So when crimes are committed mostly by black communities, you agree they should be profiled?

Not in greater numbers, but they exist. I don't trust a strange man with my children. I don't trust a strange woman with my children.

My daughter was in nursery from age 3 with women only. I would never put / have put my children in a nursery with men.

Cruelty and neglect has killed children in nurseries. It is just as serious.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c9wgpdpdedqo
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/uk-news/toddler-allergies-died-after-being-36042789

That is entirely your choice. Three is the minimum age I'd consider it too. Those women were still strangers and I've seen some pretty horrible emotional and mental abuse from women in authority over children in my time.

Exactly.

This post is depressing to read because you are reading it with an emotional lens. Nobody is saying that all men are drawn to working with young children because they are perverts. And most posters are supportive of male teachers in primary and secondary schools - the discussion is about nursery. And if your husband doesn't understand that men as a sex class pose a greater risk to children in terms of sexual assaults then I hope he isn't teaching later level primary school maths which covers stats and probability.

Is paedophilia the only form of abuse that children can be subjected to in nurseries?