To think the way MN lets anti trans extremists hijack a tragedy is pretty despicable

[Blu3Shoes]

I’ve read several threads full of hate filled anti trans ideology diatribes with zero thoughts for the victims, Canadians upset asking for some empathy and making it clear they as a nation just need to grieve, anti trans hate speech….

Jumping on a human tragedy to push your extremist agenda whilst MN just sits back and lets it happen on multiple threads is as low as you can get.

One wonders how low MN is going to sink. It’s such an unpleasant place now. I guess all HQ cares about now is getting a good price in the sell off.

If I found MN so horribly toxic, I'd limit my time here.

I personally see no need to express sympathy for the victims and their families here online in a forum where they will almost certainly never see it. Can we never have any discussions about violent crimes without expressing sympathy first, to prove ourselves worthy and good people? What purpose does that serve? Take it as a given that, like most people, we are sorry for the tragic loss of life, then let us get on with the discussion.

The real problem here is that some people consider any critical thinking on the topics of trans violence and misreporting/inaccurate recording of that violence to be unforgivably hostile and "terf-y".

What about the rights of the boys who were killed?

There really is something to be said about someone who complains that a general discussion thread about an incident is ‘hijacked’ by relevant and topical discussion just because the discussion didn’t follow that poster’s choices for what should be discussed on the thread. Posters who complained were reminded that they could start a new thread or that they could actually have the discussion they wanted on the thread if they posted accordingly.

Not only that, but within many of the posts was updated information and links to media around the world.

But apparently, we have a case of some posters wanting to curate a thread to suit them personally and complaining when it doesn’t suit them personally. And who seem to wish to denigrate anyone who doesn’t align with all their views and their etiquette .

Perhaps have some respect for the victims and let them grieve first though.

I’m literally talking about the judgment handed down today on single sex spaces that @Helleofabore mentioned.

Talking about perpetrators and pretending there isn’t a problem with tran identified males doesn’t stop their grief.

But let’s say that we should let them grieve first - what’s the timeline for talking about this issue that is very much of public interest?

Nope. I used to love mumsnet. I like reading about interesting topics, hearing people talk about issues. I don't enjoy the same topic being pushed into every single discussion, it's boring and so predictable at this point so I am opting out more and more and choosing a place that is more than a 1 trick pony. I'd rather read about knitting than read people cheering on racists 'because they know what a woman is'.

I thought that's what people wanted? If you don't like it leave and I and I am sure others are choosing more and more to do that to access more rounded conversations.

Who is cheering on racists because they “know what a woman is”?
Im not leaving I like it here, im not butthurt because women are speaking about the erosion of womanhood by men

I'd rather read about knitting than read people cheering on racists 'because they know what a woman is'.

Who is doing that?

Won't somebody think of mens feelings?! Boo-fucking-hoo. You haven't got the first clue what hate actually looks like, hint, it looks like the actions of this evil MAN.

Literally nobody but let’s not let reason get in the way of a good old lie!

Agree OP.

I am reading snippets from the judgement and it really is refreshing, Eresh.

And I think that it should start to show accusations about ‘anti-trans’ up for what they are, so often it is just emotional manipulation to shame people discussing relevant issues from the perspective of protecting female people and children.

So... go and do it? We're not stopping you. Although you're trying to control discussion here. You're about the 500000th poster I've seen this week on a thread about something they claim to be bored of and uninterested in. It's hardly surprising you lot get bored so much if you seek out and engage with the stuff that bores you.

Obviously it's a shame that women's rights bores you, and that you can't see why a mass shooting by a man claiming to be a woman, with that lie prioritised in many supposedly serious and respectful news outlets, has sparked debate. But that's not our failing. What are we supposed to do about it?

Also... cheering on racists? What on earth are you rabbiting on about? It's the TRAs who think men can be women because black women are women.

Then I guess you also object to the proper and realistic characterisation of the Pakistani rape gangs?

Well no one is going to give you a policy on it, but common decency would suggest maybe not start while the bodies are still warm.
Though please continue to pretend that your campaign is so important it can't wait.

Those who claim the victims won't see this stuff, you do realise these kind of conversations get shared around social media, picked up by the media etc? No one is saying you can't spend your life spewing anti trans hate if that's your thing, just to have a bit of respect at not hijacking this situation so insensitively.

Why do you think that pointing out this individual is a male who needed high level mental health support is 'spewing trans hate'?

Seriously, why?

This was a horrific and tragic crime, committed by a very mentally unwell man. Not by a woman.

And I firmly believe and always will do (irrespective of whether even on MN you’re ‘allowed’ to say this) that thinking you’re born in the wrong body is a mental illness. And ‘affirming’ that is harmful. So yes. We will talk about it, and yes, I do believe sadly that tragedies like this will happen if people are not given the appropriate mental health support.

And once again, for those of the hard of understanding: it is not trans hatred to believe that (I) you can’t change biological reality, and (ii) that women and girls’ spaces should be just for biological women and girls.

For me it's not the fact they were trans, it's the fact they were male.

What I think is wrong is that gender ideology means we are recording male crimes as female crimes.

I'm not using it as a "gotcha" that a trans person did something bad. I believe most trans people are ordinary decent people, just like I believe most males are ordinary decent people. However, more males than females commit crimes like mass murder and rape and it's important that this is recorded accurately.

It's curious how anyone who isn't an ally is always accused of hate, I don't see posts on MN saying they hate trans people, or that they want to hurt them, just that they don't want them in single sex spaces. The TRA seem to hate us but we've committed the crime of saying No and there's plenty of men who can't hear that word

Or perhaps we focus on trying to reduce the chances that other people will be victims and other families grieve? Because if we are to have a hope of preventing such things in future an understanding of why they happen and what leads a person to these actions is crucial.
A young woman and a TIM who has identified as a woman for 4 years are very different. They will have different life experiences, different challenges and different priorities. If they have mental health issues they will likely be rooted in different causes, manifest in different ways and they will have recieved different interventions.
How can we consider what may lead people to such acts if we refuse to acknowledge and name an important element of their person, and falsely place them within a different demographic to which they don't belong?

Yeah dude, I'm the one trying to control the discussion here not the people who plop onto half of the threads to give the same tired speeches about transpeople 🙄

The drama of it all. I don't like it very much here any more so more and more I am posting elsewhere. I don't give a fuck about transpeople. I'm sick of mumsnet being a one issue website. I was giving my opinion on the OP, not trying to control you ffs.

Well no one is going to give you a policy on it, but common decency would suggest maybe not start while the bodies are still warm.Though please continue to pretend that your campaign is so important it can't wait.

We've been trying for years to have this discussion, before there are bodies at all, to be preventative, and always got told to shut up then too. This is what the American gun lobby does too. Shuts people up before there's a tragedy and then when there is, tells everyone it's insensitive to say it now.

When is an appropriate time for truth?

Do you not think spreading a patent lie that benefits nobody except the deluded ego of the gunman himself while the bodies are still warm is against common decency?

Do you not think complaining that accurately describing a murderer as a man is "spewing trans hate" while the bodies are still warm is against common decency?

Yeah dude, I'm the one trying to control the discussion

Well of course you are; you're literally complaining about it and telling us, repeatedly, that you're leaving because of it (oh no!). If you're not doing this to try to control discussion, what exactly is the purpose? Is this just what we have to expect from "I sit on threads because they bore me so much" people?

There are plenty of threads that don't mention transgenderism, most of them actually, and it isn't beyond the wit of a reasonably intelligent person to guess that this wasn't going to be one of them. If they're not good enough for you, it sounds as if you have plenty of other places to go and be exciting and superior on, so... go there?