Lucy letby

[bloomingbonkerz]

Do you think she did it ? Watched the documentary and I’m not sure she should have been convicted

So were the Birmingham Six, the Guildford Four, Andrew Malkinson, Sally Clarke, Angela Cannings..... I could go on....

As for accusations of being insulted, those of us questioning the quality and safety of her conviction are routinely accused of being mad, bad and dangerous to know, so don't be surprised if occasionally our responses are a little pithy.

She is a murderer. She has been convicted, so that is fact. Unless her conviction is one day overturned, she is by law, a murderer.

Not at all - your all commandeering the thread

those cases are all different

they have no bearing on this case

I didn't know what going commando meant until I was well into adulthood. What would be the point in her lying about that?

Maintain the naive, innocent, childlike image she'd fostered? Better to look ignorant than like a sexual being in front of her parents/the jury? Who knows, but obviously she knew what it meant - wouldn't someone google it before telling a friend their mutual colleague had said it to them if they didn't know what it meant?

It's a fact in law, for the time being, but the law has provision for overturning such facts. We all know they aren't necessarily true. And protesting her innocence really can't sensibly be used as an example of her lying when there is so much rational doubt about the safety of her conviction.

She didn't tell a friend mutual colleague had said it to her - a friend used the expression to her in a text message.

Maybe she knew what it meant, but it's perfectly possible she didn't, and nobody ever claimed to have proved otherwise. It's not a good example of a lie.

It was in the context of a text conversation between her and a colleague, who was teasing her about the married GP. Letby replied to the ‘dud you go commando’? message with laughing emojis. But in the trial she denied knowing what the term meant, perhaps to give a faux naive impression to the jury.

She wasn't cut off from them, is my point. This was proved.

You can’t be this naive to believe she was unwell seeing this man she had huge feelings for, perhaps the only man she’d fallen for, suddenly appear as a witness for the prosecution? Really? And the tears?

He said he had made massive mistakes and had a lot of regrets, and if you read the transcript it’s clear he was referring to her manipulating him into giving him information.

Bear with, I have to bring my eyes back into focus because they rolled so far back into my head.

We're not commandeering the thread, most of us are pointing out errors and misconceptions in people's beliefs about the case, some with far more grace and patienxe than myself, I admit.

All those cases had dodgy evidence, including forensic, and actually there is a strong resonance with Angela Cannings and Sally Clarke as their cases were largely based on flawed and now discredited statistics, and the influence of a couple of witnesses with a pet theory to flog, not to mention the joy of basking in the perception of their heroic efforts. The expert in this case is an acolyte of theirs.

All MOJs have a bearing, in the sense of exposing poor practise, corruption, error and potential bias in the entire system.

I can't see a single part of Lucy Letby's correspondence with that doctor where she lied to him. Can you? The fact that he moaned about being manipulated later doesn't mean she lied to him.

"It was the woman. She made me do it"

Tale as old as time.

I don’t agree they are alike - home deaths without half the evidence as LL

So the doctors are allowed to lie, you’re not calling them out. The police exaggerated the truth even their duty roster is a lie because not everyone is on it. Dr Evan’s lied he had already decided she was guilty before reading the notes. Prosecution lied when they tried to convince a jury she was evil with no actual evidence. Judge Goss if he knowingly jailed her knowing she was innocent (he had been warned in writing by another judge about dr Evan’s) he should be jailed. All these men lied ( think there is a couple policewomen & female doctor involved)
but all everyone can go on about Lucy lied about a shredder….no context. Bit like being arrested in pj’s she was called a liar then, but we now know it was the truth the Netflix showed us it was true.

You don’t know any of that yet

Police can be 100% certain and get it wrong - spectacularly.

This case appears to be utter nonsense. It makes a laughing stock of our justice system.

The strongest evidence is:

She may have lied about knowing the meaning of the word commando
She didn't properly dispose of handover notes
She searched for people including relatives of her patients on Facebook

On the other hand

A leading group of world experts don't think any babies were murdered at all and the hospital was a total shit show.

We should all be pretty scared that in the UK this quality of evidence can get you locked up for the rest of your life.

I don't think we are as far away from the 17th century witch trials as we think we are.

Look, you can disagree all you like, but there are similarities.

Some of us have been looking at this, and other cases, for several years. By no means are we experts, but we are pretty familiar with many aspects of the case that have been misrepresented in the media and sensationalised by people who do fancy themselves experts.

Systemic failures do happen. This case is rife with them.

Great - whole heartedly agree to disagree 👋

You do know Dr Evan’s was big supporter of Sally Clarkes expert witness whose evidence was found to be false. No help to Sally she lost 2 children, her career her freedom eventually found to be a miscarriage of justice, she was released but died shortly afterwards. Same as Lucia de burg neonatal nurse case very similar to Lucy’s died after released. The trauma these women goes through, seems to be way of discrediting women cause them so much anguish they become mentally unstable, seems to be repeating trend in the nhs. Think neodoc she had a link to an oversight committee that was said that this was a known strategy used to quell critics or discontent.

The idea that the prosecution "proved" Lucy Letby was lying about being cut off from her colleagues is also flawed. The prosecution lawyer kept insisting that since she was included in some parties and group events, she wasn't cut off. But she explained perfectly reasonably why she felt this way, and even if you think she wasn't entirely cut off, I don't see how you turn this into a lie.

BM: All right. I want to ask you next about the period, in fact, after you were removed from clinical duties. So we're looking at the period in July 2016 when you were moved away from clinical duties. Why did you think you were being put in a non-clinical role that July?
LL: That there'd been an increased mortality rate on the unit, and as a result, numerous members of staff were having to go through a competency check and redo their competencies, and that would be starting with myself.
BM: And how did you come to believe that is what was happening?
LL: That's what I was told.
BM: And who were you told that by?
LL: By management within the hospital and
BM: How did you feel when you were removed from clinical duties and were told that your competencies were going to be checked like this?
LL: I was devastated.
BM: Why were you devastated?
LL: Because I've always prided myself on being very competent, and the fact that potentially I hadn't been competent in something really, really affected me. And to be taken away from the job that I loved, it was very difficult.
BM: When you say it really affected you, could you convey to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury the extent of that when you say it really affected you?
LL: It was just, it was life-changing in that moment. I was taken away from the support system that I had on the unit. I was then put into a non-clinical role that I didn't enjoy. I had to pretend to a lot of people that it was a voluntary process, which it wasn't. And from a self-confidence point of view, it completely, well, it made me question everything about myself.
BM: Right. When was it, so far as you can recall, you first discovered that you were being held responsible for harm to babies on the unit or their deaths?
LL: Not until the September of 2016.
BM: What then was it in September 2016 that led you to discovering that you were being held responsible for deaths of babies?
LL: I received a letter from the Royal College of Nursing in which they had been informed that actually the true reason for my redeployment was because I was being held responsible.
BM: We're thinking about, do you remember roughly what date that would have been that you received that letter? Not the precise day, but maybe which month?
LL: It was September.
BM: September 2016?
LL: Yes.
BM: And what was going on that meant you received that letter at about that time? What was taking place or about to start?
LL: So I was looking at putting in a grievance procedure.
BM: About what?
LL: About how I'd been redeployed from the unit and the information that I'd been given in relation to that.
BM: Did you have any idea how many babies you were being held responsible for harming or for their deaths?
LL: No.
BM: How did it make you feel when you received the news that you were being held responsible?
LL: Well, it was sickening. It was... I couldn't believe it.
BM: I want you to describe how best you can—it may not be easy—but describe as best you can what it felt like to have that being said about you, Miss Letby, if you can.
LL: I mean, it was devastating. I don't think there's... I don't think you can be accused of anything worse than that and, yeah, I was just devastated.
BM: Well, you tell us how it affected you. That might be another way of looking at this. What was the effect of this on you? What happened?
LL: I just changed as a person. My mental health deteriorated, and I felt very isolated from my friends and family on the unit and...
BM: Just pausing there. When you say isolated, of course, you'd been removed from the neonatal unit. Had you had friends on the neonatal unit?
LL: Yes, a lot of friends. We were a very supportive unit as well. Regardless of whether we were personal friends, we were a very supportive nursing team.
BM: When you moved on to... Sorry to interrupt you.
LL: It's okay.
BM: When you moved to a non-clinical role and you were being told that you'd undergo the competency testing, were you able to explain that to other people on the unit?
LL: No. So at that time, the hospital advised me not to communicate with anybody on the unit and to sort of go with the pretense that it was a voluntary secondment. And it was identified at that time that there were two or three friends that I would be able to speak to, but otherwise, I was not to have contact with anyone on the unit.
BM: You say it was identified there were two or three friends you could speak to. Who were they?
LL: It was Nurse E, Dr. A, and Mina Lapalainen.
BM: Nurse E?
LL: Yes.
BM: Dr. A?
LL: Yes.
BM: And Mina Lapalainen?
LL: Yes.
BM: You'd said that you'd felt isolated. You had been describing how it felt when you learned you were being blamed for a death or deaths. You made a reference to your mental health. Did you go to and seek any assistance with how it affected you, mentally speaking?
LL: I did, yes. I went to my GP. I wasn't sleeping. I wasn't eating. I just had a complete change in my whole life. And I was starting on some antidepressants at that point, which I remain on now.
BM: So did the GP put you on antidepressants?
LL: Yes.
BM: If it doesn't seem too obvious a question, what's that for? What were you given them for? What state were you in?
LL: They diagnosed me with depression and anxiety at that time.
BM: And you say you've remained on that medication?
LL: Yes.
BM: And are you receiving that now?
LL: Yes.
BM: Do you take any other medication at the moment?
LL: I also take medication to help with sleep, yes. I am unable to sleep without medication.
BM: How bad did the negative feelings get, so far as you're concerned about yourself? How bad?
LL: There were times when I didn’t want to live.
BM: And what did you want to do? What did it make you think of doing?
LL: To myself?
BM: Yes.
LL: I thought of taking my own life.

(Transcript from https://www.reddit.com/r/LucyLetbyTrials/s/AJOfpl25Sp)

When she was asked about the events leading up to a baby’s death, she frequently answered that she didn’t remember.

If the baby was in her care, I think she would have replayed it in her head and agonised over whether there was anything she could have done differently.

It would have been unforgettable surely.

It depends what she was asked really. But she would be well advised not to answer before having sight of medical notes. She'd be unlikely to remember all the routine stuff she did, in what order, at what time, what was the dose, what was the result, who gave the feed etc etc and not leave anything out or get muddled. Then she would be accused of lying you see.

Another way of thinking what it's reasonable to expect nurses to remember about children who died in their care is to look at the other nurses working when Baby D (Zoe) died. They're prepared and relying on notes and still remember almost nothing and change their stories. The one who was actually caring for her tells us she just has a vague memory of the baby "misbehaving" before her final deterioration. Nobody seems to find this sinister - so why should Lucy Letby have a better memory of events?

(There is a good account drawing directly on trial transcripts at https://www.reddit.com/r/LucyLetbyTrials/comments/1enswuk/shifting_timelines_in_the_death_of_baby_d_where/)

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2023-06-09/lucy-letby-denies-telling-lies-is-to-get-sympathy-from-people

That's my point. All you have there is the prosecution lawyer telling her she's lying. That's his job. It is very naive to assume that means she lied. It is also not considered evidence simply because he says it.

I think court reporting might need to carry a warning explaining what the prosecution does and why their statements and questions aren't evidence in these exchanges.

Her account is perfectly plausible, of course, and ties in perfectly with the evidence given by her colleagues at the Thirlwall Inquiry.

One way to shut down the debate…….

I finally watched it.

I don’t know how anyone can watch that and be certain she’s innocent.

Likewise I can’t be 100% she’s done it. But it’s safely in the 90-95% band