To have lost faith in men

[nondrinker1985]

As a result of all the Epstein stuff. Having been a victim of a sexual assault as a young child then in my teens and twenties I had a sense of what men were like but my DH is a good man.

Literally everyone is involved in this Epstein stuff- anyone with power. So this makes them exploit young women? It’s sickening - it’s heartbreaking for the young girls who are victims of these men.

Pre internet, I and all my friends were flashed at, groped, or assaulted by men. We knew of people who were raped. I was flashed at aged 13 on my way home from a netball match. I had my breasts complimented by a bus driver when I was 14. My friend's dad regularly beat her and her mother. We knew not to go to a local field because men were masturbating there.

We saw on the news about Lin and Megan Russell, about girls abducted on the way home. We saw how people treated Sam Fox and Mandy Smith.

When I was older (still pre internet) we still walked home with our keys in our hands. We still stopped men rubbing up against us on the tube, we were still fondled by our male bosses. We heard about mini cab drivers abducting women off the streets after going clubbing.

Pre internet we were still scared of men.

It’s really odd how they’re just consumed by and obsessed with sex. Just really really weird.

Women’s Aid was founded in 1974. Draw your own conclusions.

I agree something makes people in power be more likely to become predators or pursue things most other people don’t. It could be a control thing, boredom, psychopathy, god knows. But I don’t see this as a men problem exclusively. What about all the females engaging with Epstein and enabling him and those around him? Sarah Ferguson, Mette Marit, Maxwell, Sophie? What about all the things said about Hilary Clinton attacking women abused by her husband? They are not victims. They are as twisted as the men they protect and adore.

I wonder if pre internet, when women didn't get a daily feed of how horrible the majority of men are, the majority of women took men as they found them, ie, mostly OK.

Mostly ok? You haven’t got a clue. Just another man put to dismiss and minimise. I have never, never, spoken to a woman who did not have some stories of sexual harassment to tell, and many who have worse.

What women do on here is talk about our real experiences. That’s all. Look up Laura Bates’s early project too. Or watch the misogynistic comments from men on the videos that should not exist of women walking around our cities minding their own business. Or the misogynistic comments known women in online video gaming get … or the misogynistic comments young girls still get daily walking around in their school uniforms. But I’m wasting my time, it didn’t happen to a man, therefore it didn’t happen.

My granny was born in the 1920s. She told me never to get into a car with a man, because once the windows were up and the door was locked no one would be able to hear you scream. I wonder why women were afraid of men before the Internet?

🙄 my point wasn’t that women are as bad, or more dangerous. My point is I’ve been assaulted by a woman and it was my male friends that protected me. None of them were knocked down.

I then concluded my point with I’m careful because of ALL people, not because of JUST men. Yes, a small minority of men are violent/aggressive/vile creatures. Does that mean I treat all men like that? Absolutely not. Do I believe all men have the capacity to be like that? Absolutely not. Exactly the same applies to women, far smaller numbers admittedly.

You are insanely naive if you think women don’t have the capacity for violence. I’m genuinely shocked. I’m past the stage where I enjoy big nights out in town (I’d rather be at home on the sofa with DH and the kids) but I’ve seen plenty of arguments, scuffles, fights, whatever you want to call them involving women over the years. Far more involving men obviously.

You also have read my post wrong as nobody other than me was knocked to the floor. You don’t believe that a woman knocked me to the floor, that’s not my problem.

This. ^ And it never stops. They are always obsessed with sex, naked women, and porn. There is no age where men suddenly become better and nicer. I have been catcalled, and harrassed, and groped by dozens of men, aged between 20 and 85 in my lifetime.

To try and make out women are as bad as men (as a couple of posters have done,) is utterly farcical.

Has anyone said women aren’t capable of harm and violence?

Statistically though men cause more harm than women. Why is your main thought ‘women do it too’ when men are the main perpetrators of harm. It’s about as useful as ‘not all men’, which is still rearing it’s head I see.

The SCUM Manifesto by Valerie Solanas (shot Andy Warhol) is an interesting (if admittedly slightly crazy) read!
I liked her point that men were defective because their Y chromosome was just a deformed X. She strongly advocated the abolishment of all men, so obviously extreme...
But the point is there. Its not All men, but its men. Not women. Id love to think we can raise our boys better, but there's not much sign of improvement. My own ds has 2 very vocal sisters (it was my dd who gave me the SCUM Manifesto to read) and a lot of female friends, so I like to think he is respectful of women. But a boy who was at school with dd2 (20) has just been imprisoned for rape, so is it really getting better?

98% of assaults are by males. The statistics are quite clear.

And male on female violence is far worse than female on female violence. For example males hit 176% harder than females.

Hear hear!

I'd also add that women don't go around raping other women, we don't have a female version of the men that lined up to rape Gisèle Pelicot. Men overpower women with ease. Three women per week on average around the world are murdered by men. Domestic Violence is another example. To say women are equal in strength to men and commit violence at the same rate as women and are as much a threat as men or more is an absolute lie and completely batshit.

If you were paying attention you’ll have noted that I’ve said it’s more likely to be men.

Loving the fact that there are now posters trying to say women can be just as violent as men….

Women do not pose anywhere near as much risk to society as men do, in any aspect.

That’s why I always tell my children that if they ever get lost then they need to go and find a woman, explain what’s happened and ask for help. I would never tell they to go up to a random man and say they’re lost. Never.

I imagine a lot of mothers would be the same.

On a thread about men, 200 posts in, you decide to plop a ‘but women do it too’ and ‘all men are not the same’, like we are stupid. Unfortunately I am paying attention but predictably not that surprised.

My conclusion is that of course some women have needed protection from some men, long before 1974.
The women who have been mistreated by men have the right to feel fear, some from the men who have ill-treated them, some from all men.

On this thread it seems the vast majority of women who have posted are scared to death at worse, wary and mistrustful at best, of ALL men.
It's like mass hysteria to me.

I am old enough and woman enough to have met many men...a few have been pigs, the vast majority have been respectful.

That's my opinion based on MY experiences.

Such mispresentations of both sides here.

On this thread it seems the vast majority of women who have posted are scared to death at worse, wary and mistrustful at best, of ALL men. Frightened is entirely valid and shouldn't be implicitly mocked or dismissed in this way; please be aware that the posters who fit this description may well be suffering from trauma due to abuse. Wary and mistrustful, yes indeed - see below.

Does that mean I treat all men like that? Absolutely not. I'm not sure believe you, at least in the sense in which most posters here are talking about treating men - with caution, when appropriate.

To both these posters, here's my NAMALT Staniland question again. Any honest response (that doesn't dodge the issue with prevarication or unlikely hypotheticals) is almost sure to be the same. Each and every time. Which shows that posters know exactly what most other women here really feel and mean - and likely experience it themselves to a greater or lesser degree.

"Think of the woman or girl you care about most. Imagine her walking alone down an empty street at night.

She sees a stranger coming towards her out of the darkness."

Would you rather that the stranger was a man or a woman?"

*Edited my question to replace "figure" with "stranger"! Makes the point more clearly.

Your point is really hard to follow @brunettemic. From what I've read, you seem to be saying you've been attacked by a woman - which is a rare occurrence but no doubt very scary. Due to this incident, you're wary of all people. Is that right?

Most women haven't been attacked by women and would never expect to be attacked by a woman as it so rarely happens. They have, however, been attacked by men. Therefore they are wary of men. That seems logical to me.

You were attacked by a woman, so you're wary of women and men.
Most women are attacked by men, so they're wary of men.

I can't really see where you're disagreeing with other posters? Maybe you're not and I've picked you up wrong?

Internalised misogyny. Disappointingly happens with so many women. Look at all the handmaiden TRAs that enable men to take over women’s spaces and language?

Women who facilitate paedophiles are not handmaidens or suffering from internalised misogyny, they’re as bad as the men they’re enabling.

The evil that men do

The thing is, we don't know who is decent and who is rotten. We think we do.

Quite. You don't know who you're married to until you tell him you want a divorce.

I had a male friend who I thought I knew well and we were friends for 40 years. Eventually, he showed himself to be a condescending misogynist. I saw the way he behaved when he split up with his wife, how horrible he was to her, and how he immediately went chasing after women. It was painful to see. You never know who someone is till they show you their true selves.