To have lost faith in men

[nondrinker1985]

As a result of all the Epstein stuff. Having been a victim of a sexual assault as a young child then in my teens and twenties I had a sense of what men were like but my DH is a good man.

Literally everyone is involved in this Epstein stuff- anyone with power. So this makes them exploit young women? It’s sickening - it’s heartbreaking for the young girls who are victims of these men.

It was on the news tonight that women are being filmed on nights men. They don't know it's being done
Thern are uploading the footage to you tube and it's getting millions of views. You tube have had to take a few accounts down

It's grim. We can partly thank smartphones and the internet though. Another thing that couldn't have happened years ago.
Rm are just getting worse and worse. I bet they wouldn't like their wives or daughters filmed and put online,?

I think what really exposes the naysayers is a kind of Staniland question for the NAMALT debate:

"Think of the woman or girl you care about most. Imagine her walking alone down an empty street at night.

She sees a figure coming towards her out of the darkness."

Would you rather that the figure was a man or a woman?"

Assuming that they really care about that woman or girl, every. single. one. of them will answer the same way.

Every one.

It also shows, how, in one very real and impactful sense, to women, it is all men.

I’ve seen a few of these pop up on social media and they’re grim.

Sure you can

I am a tad surprised my post was deleted - I merely stated biological truths as well as personal opinions as to the attractiveness or lack thereof of men and their moral failings - I did not call for violence nor used any worse language than what they chose to name us

Plenty of men do use vile language about women but the solution isn't to be vile back.

Plenty of oppressed groups have done that historically, and it's never ended well.

I didn't totally get it
What's the interest in women going out and about. I guess it's something sexual?

Pornsick- in Porn World anything a woman does is sexual. According to BBC it tends to focus on lower body and 'intimate areas' - no surprises. Basically unsporting from a further distance.

It’s usually young women dressed up on nights out, so yes.

You're so defeatist - never stop the fight because men sure as hell are never going to leave us in peace

Well what do you think women should do? Ir's not realistic to expect men to vanish...if you are so pessimistic about the nature of most men then wouldn't the best solution be a female-only island/colony? What do you envisage when you say women should never stop fighting men?

I mean that women should de-centre men ; apart from unavoidable occurrences, interactions with men as well as references about men ought to be kept to a minimum

Or seem very quick to judge other groups, e.g. the masses of white men protesting about Asian men/asylum seekers/immigrants committing crimes, yet ignoring the fact the problem is... men!

Equally I’m never not amazing at how women on here, I don’t anyone like it in real life, simply lump “all men” together and are utterly incapable of seeing it a different way.

@antereneai agree. It’s something I’m trying to do even in my own marriage. There has to a strong sense of self
for that.

Do you cross over the road when theres a woman walking behind you in the dark because you're scared of her footsteps? Do you have your car keys in your hand so you can go for the eyes if someone jumps out at you? Have you thought about how you'd kick a guy in the balls and run? Have you been desperate for the loo but walked past a public toilet because it was dimly lit? Have you considered whether you'd go limp during a rape or fight back, because if you don't struggle you might survive, but then the police might take lack of struggle as consent?

Have you been chastised by family and colleagues because you walked home after a night out rather than getting a taxi, because it left you open to risk? Have you had to account for taxi costs in every night out even though its only a ten minute walk because you dont want to be blamed for being reckless?

I sadly agree with all this and bar one, have had the nicest, respectful boyfriends too.

Oh I see, decentring men. I've come across that online before. I'm not convinced that's it's an effective tactics to change things.

I definitely think that women should be very selective about male friends and boot out anyone showing sexist tendencies.

How does decentring men work if you're married to one, though? Part of marriage is surely that you're important to each other so surely limiting thinking about and interactions with men would be difficult to combine with marriage?

I haven’t lost faith but this does not surprise me. It seems the norm that when men have power (especially over women) a not insignificant number will use it to sexually coerce and abuse women. And this is almost non existant with women who have power over men.

I saw a TikTok video recently about the male dating pool which struck a nerve.
The analogy goes like this - imagine you have a jar and in it are 10 M&Ms (the decent men), and all you have to do is dip into the jar and pick one, but what you didn’t know is that the jar is also full of maggots, needles and acid, so every time you dip into you get bitten, scratched and burnt, but you’re still assured that those M&Ms are in there, that it’s your responsibility to pick it, and to keep going in there to find it. Right now more and more women are choosing not to bother, and men aren’t happy about it, particularly those who think they are the good men.

Women are constantly held accountable for picking the wrong men, often by other women, and the depths of deception that many men go to is dismissed. How many men seem like the right choice until you’re pregnant, or in a position where you are vulnerable, then show their true colours?

Most men I personally know (including father, brothers, cousins, friends, colleagues) are lovely men in their own way, individually, but still show behaviour that once you can see it cannot unsee it. The ones considered genuinely good men, good husbands and fathers, are usually held to a far lower standard than women, and the older I get the more obvious it is. I don’t know one man who is a truly equal partner in a relationship. Even the man who split from his wife and had his children 50:50 met another woman within weeks and moved her in to be Mum.2.

Women carry the load, are the caretakers, the protectors, and more than ever, perhaps because communication has never been easier, they are opting out of being with men, which is very telling, and men don’t like it (poor things).

I think generally more men are responsible for serious crimes. Just now had to turn over bbc breakfast. A beautiful girl with her whole life ahead of her ,snuffed out by the Suffolk strangler. Of course there are good men of which DH and DS are.many friends too.but I think they are more selfish on day to day as well.on here only yesterday, a lady whose DH let her catch the train whilst recovering from birth injuries. And today a lady whose DH minimising her success at work!Women are supposed to "be there" for theirDH and families, can u imagine how this would be the other way around?

The trouble with this kind of analysis is that sex class is not the only class. Given that the OP mentioned Epstein, social class and wealth class also seem quite significant.

This is why intersectional feminism is important.

I don't dispute that men - as a sex class! - have been and continue to be responsible for more horrific acts of violence and exploitation than women as a sex class. But that's just an observation, not analysis. No one seems to be able to decide whether this is due to cultural socialisation or something innate to men, or to what extent. Which is a problem - if you want to address the issue, you have to know what the issue is.

Personally I don't believe the issue is actually about men, per se, but about power structures. Humans in positions of power will exploit and victimise humans they consider beneath them if they don't think there will be consequences. Women very much included - I always think about how many domestic abuse cases involve upper-class, wealthy women abusing their female staff/servants.