To have lost faith in men

[nondrinker1985]

As a result of all the Epstein stuff. Having been a victim of a sexual assault as a young child then in my teens and twenties I had a sense of what men were like but my DH is a good man.

Literally everyone is involved in this Epstein stuff- anyone with power. So this makes them exploit young women? It’s sickening - it’s heartbreaking for the young girls who are victims of these men.

YABU. It's an elite thing, not a 'man' thing. Ghilsane Maxwell facilitated a lot of it, as well.

Do you think the problem is that women and girls are not socialised enough to excuse terrible male behaviour because they need to #bekind and show they're not sexist and demonstrate their virtue? And that if we don't do it, you are in fact the victim of our terrible, damaging sexism?

Yes. You do.

On a very simple level, dencetring men essentially means behaving like a man. Even the good men I know, DH included, are fundamentally self-centred. They're the star of the show and for the most part they will prioritise themselves without much guilt or even thought. Women, meanwhile, have it absolutely drummed into them from day one that they must think of others, consider everyone's feelings, keep everyone happy. Even in the happiest, fairest relationships you will almost always see some subtle (or not so subtle) prioritisation of the man. Even simple things like the woman likes a certain food but never makes it because the man said once that he doesn't really like it. The woman creeps about the house when she has to get up early but the man bang and crashes, that sort of thing. Decentring means reclaiming yourself, essentially, not always making yourself small and tucking yourself conveniently away so you don't bother people. Making the food you like and not caring if others aren't delighted. Changing plans that others want because it doesn't suit you. It doesn't mean being a dickhead, it just means not always putting yourself last.

The older women in my life could really do with a dose of decentring. They have tucked themselves away so much they barely exist any more.

Is every single man in the world like this, no of course not. The group that commit the most hideous crimes (sex trafficking, rape etc) is small, however even one is still one too many and that is only the extreme crimes.

The group that is committing less extreme offences (I wont say less serious because that belittles the offence) is far far larger and one of the issues is that a lot of men in this group don't even understand what they are doing is wrong. Most men like to think of themselves as "nice guys" but I suspect at some point in their life have done something to make a woman uncomfortable, threatened, etc. It is probably something that man never even thought twice about but that woman may have thought about it for a long time. This is the issue, we need to have more empathy and understand how actions society trivialises can have a huge impact on someone and absolutely are not acceptable! To me (and very happy to be corrected) one of the scariest issues isn't that these things happen but it is the fact men don't even understand why or how what they do is wrong or what impact it causes. That in my mind is why women have lost faith in men, its one thing for a group to be despicable but when a fairly large group can't even comprehend an issue exists it or even that the issue is acceptable then it makes you wonder if this is something that can ever be changed or if this is actually an inbuilt male psyche.

As men we should focus on how we can change things so that rather than feeling the need to defend ourselves as an individual and "I'm not like them" there is no them to start with.

For clarity I am a male.

Spot on, thank you @KoiTetra

I know so many women who exited dating (myself included) due to this. We know there are tonnes and tonnes and tonnes of great man put there but the effort to find them is just too exhausting and damaging as all the terrible men also crowd the pool. Easier to remain single.

It’s really not an elite thing. Stories of abuse of women by men permeates all levels of society in all corners.

Not at all.

The men are just sleeping with the same smaller number of women. Also a lot of the women they are sleeping with may be single.

It’s very easy to have a difference in the numbers.

Decentering men does not mean being self-centered. It means not making the male gaze and appealing to men the primary driver of everything you do.

#BeKind

#BeKindìam assuming you tell your mates when they're being sexist walkers etc?

How does that go down?

To quote from another poster: Most men I personally know (including father, brothers, cousins, friends, colleagues) are lovely men in their own way, individually, but still show behaviour that once you can see it cannot unsee it. The ones considered genuinely good men, good husbands and fathers, are usually held to a far lower standard than women, and the older I get the more obvious it is.

Yes, this is exactly many men I know and love - lovely men in their own way, individually, but still show behaviour that once seen it cannot be unseen. So what choices do I have? Refuse to interact with them, on account of their behaviour? Pull them up on it and enter into conflicts & arguments. Sometimes I have lobbed a comment into the discussion to try and make a point but needless to say it falls on unfertile soil.

The reality is, these "lovely" men just don't get it and probably if pushed, would admit they don't really care about the situation for most women. They would prefer women "to not make such a fuss."

'Self-centred' is usually seen as a bad thing, particularly among women, which obviously benefits men. Centring yourself makes sense - who's going to look after you if you don't look after yourself? Extreme self-centredness, where you don't think of anyone but yourself, is obviously a bad thing, but putting as much value on yourself as you put on everyone else is necessary.

A big part of the 'male loneliness epidemic' is down to the fact that younger women are centring themselves, in a good way. They are priortising their own peace of mind and wellbeing over the needs of men. Previous generations of women were expected to put up with everything, up to and including rape, beatings, financial abuse and neglect to 'keep the family together.' Even parenting advice centred men - my mum's generation were told not to spoil the baby, to put the baby down, let the baby cry, so they could 'get stuff done.' What was the 'stuff'? Why, looking after their giant manbaby of course! Why hold a crying baby when you could be washing your husband's socks or cooking his dinner? The man is always the priority. Even over a tiny infant.

It's good that a man has come onto this thread to tell a female poster that she has a chip on her shoulder.

Almost proves the whole point of the thread 😂

I agree strongly re power.

Exactly. Also, since men tend to cheat with younger women, these women are more likely to be single, so while (assuming they know he's not single) are behave very badly, they wouldn't be counted in cheating stats in the same way.

Have you ever been punched square in the face by another woman because she thought I was standing too close to her boyfriend at the bar? I have.

Have you ever been picked up off the floor by two of your male friends having been assaulted by a woman? I have. Have you ever been looked after by them when you’re injured? I have. Have you had a male friend get hit by a woman to protect you and him refuse to fight back against that woman? I have.

Do I look out for myself when I’m by myself (who I is now I’m choosing to answer your battery of extreme examples of questions)? Yes. Do I do that because of men specifically? No.

All men are not the same. You think you’re right, maybe from your perspective you are but you’re not, and never will be, from mine.

Nope. NEVER been attacked by a woman. And I bet the tiny minority of women who have, have STILL been attacked, assaulted, and harrassed WAAAAAAAY more by men.

Need to try harder than that @brunettemic

Woman definitely have it worse with men. That's a fact. I don't believe your experience of women. I don't know anyone who has had that experience of women you speak of. Men are stronger than women. I doubt very much that a man would end up on the floor after being hit by a woman. I don't believe you And even if the woman knew martial arts I doubt she would use it in the way you describe. Most violence against women are done by men

Were these instances all the same woman? Or different ones? No wonder you're traumatised by it. Could I just say though, not all women.

Didn't want to say it, but this....... ^

Others may not,but I believe you 100%, and will probably get called a liar too when I say I have had two experiences with violent women in the past, both unprovoked, and both pretty scary.

I would never disbelieve women when they recount the horrible experiences they have had with men, and I can well understand why it can make them distrust men.

I do think it's sad that so many women (on Mumsnet, anyway) go through life fearful and distrustful of half the population.
I wonder if pre internet, when women didn't get a daily feed of how horrible the majority of men are, the majority of women took men as they found them, ie, mostly OK.

oh god. Are we now going to count how many times we have been assaulted by women compared to men?

I have been assaulted, groped, grabbed, slapped and punched on more than 10 occasions by men

once by a woman (who thought i was chatting up her girlfriend. Her girlfriend apologised and took her away before the MPs got her)

I knew this even as a naive teenager. I vowed back then I would never put up with men’s bullshit, I would never marry a cunt, I would never be the model housewife like my mother, cooking and ironing, and I would raise my sons and daughters to be feminist.

Check, check, check, check.

I’m now in my late 50s and men haven’t changed but I did my bit.