To be confused as to why hiring a cleaner is seen as an indulgence?

[Gahr]

This is something that I see time and again on this site, and it is SO WEIRD. People seem to think that it is the height of luxury to have a housecleaner, and also seem to be strangely apologetic about it, offering disclaimers as to why they need one. Also, I've noticed that on threads when someone has a problem with their cleaning service, they will get several posts telling them to 'clean their own house'. Nobody would tell someone to 'service their own boiler' or 'fix their own toilet'! I don't understand it at all. I have a cleaner and I wouldn't be without her.

"Luxury" is a value judgement and varies from person to person.

If the question was "which services do you buy in as a household and which are the most important to you?" then you'd get quite different answers.

A lot of people have mentioned boiler services. I am pretty sure DH never had one of those done before I moved in nor did he check over the boiler himself (he could have: he is at least an engineer if not a Gas Safe one).

House maintenance is just not a priority to him.

There's no escaping here that the value judgement is being made largely of women.

I am struggling to imagine a conversation between two men where the subject of household cleaning and who does it even comes up, but if it did, I can't imagine one of them saying to the other, "Eh? But you could do it yourself."

Well it’s considered a luxury because most working class families can’t afford it. But it is completely logical if you work full time to out source cleaning if you can afford to

Surely it’s not that difficult to understand?

It's still a luxury. It's still something you can go without if needs be, as opposed to food, water, shelter etc.

There's nothing wrong with employing someone to do something you don't want to, or can't find the time to, or see as less important than something else for you to be doing. It's absolutely fine.

Saying it's not a luxury however is wrong. There's people working multiple jobs just to scrape by. They can't afford a cleaner, despite them working at least full time hours if not more. So to say it's not a luxury suggests that they are not meeting the essentials.

It's a choice. A valid choice, but still a choice.

That conversation happened between my DH and BIL. BIL said he wanted a cleaner but SIL wasn't keen and prefers to do it themselves (she really likes cleaning). . BIL said he felt it was essential and DH said it's not essential if you can do it yourself.

DH also does actually do a lot of our cleaning, which I know is madness because he's a man. But he does the floors, the bathroom, etc while i do the regular dusting, the kitchen etc. Between us it doesn't take that long so we can't justify paying someone to do it for us. We do have a small house, however and I WFH with flexible hours so it's easy to fit it in. We also quite enjoy it, it helps me de-stress.

Pay for one if you want, but you can't use the argument that it's not a luxury, because it's quite simply not essential to have someone else do it for you. It's a valid choice, but it's not an essential so it's a luxury. Doesn't matter which sex you are.

This is the perfect response. I hope OP reads it and realises that she no longer needs to be 'confused'.

But this is an absurd argument.

Shop at Aldi not Waitrose. Some people can't afford Waitrose. Anyway shopping at the supermarket isn't a necessity. You can grow your own food and err...have a pig in the back yard?
Cut your hair yourself. Some people can't afford haircuts. Haircuts aren't a necessity.
Wash your own windows. Some people can't afford a window cleaner (I guess if they have an upstairs and can't afford or safely use a ladder, windows aren't getting washed, but that's ok because being able to see out of the windows isn't a necessity).

A. What has any of this got to do with having an appreciation that some people have less to spend than you or different preferences? Of course, unless you're the Beckhams, some people will always have more, too.
B. Doing it all yourself will hugely reduce the money flowing in the economy so even MORE people would be out of work/poorer. And you wouldn't have time to work anyway because a subsistence lifestyle would take all your time.

I think I may go and rewatch The Good Life.

I occasionally employ a gardener. I doubt he employs a gardener. I imagine he knows how he wants it done and I don't know if he has a garden anyway. The builder I employ occasionally does do his own building, sometimes with help from builder mates or his dad. My hairdresser doesn't cut her own hair (too difficult to do the back - she does a swap with another hairdresser). I'm a teacher. I don't teach my own child. I teach other people's children.

The OP was confused about why some parts of capitalism are OK while others aren't, and to be honest, so am I! Although the state school system is socialist really.

Never saw it this way but I agree. Our cleaner cost the same per week as a takeaway for 2.

Most of our friends would pick the weekly take away. I don't mind cooking but hate cleaning, and don't have time for it.

Everything that's not essential is a luxury. It's how you prioritise the luxuries you can afford that is the value choice.

Some people prioritise the quality of their food over cleaners.

Some people prioritise cleaners over days out.

Some prioritise alcohol over food quality.

Some people can't afford to prioritise any of those things as the essentials are costing them too much of their income.

It's absolutely fine to have the things you want and can afford. What's not fine is acting like it's so confusing that other people can't afford the same things as you, or can but are prioritising differently with their hard earned money.

My childminder doesn't employ a childminder. My friend who is an accountant doesn't employ an accountant. I'm a business analyst and wouldn't employ someone to do my forecasts and analytics.

My cleaner doesn't employ a cleaner no. She doesn't need one.

She did have a childminder when her children where younger, and she has a accounting firm helping with her tax reports as she is self-employed.

The vast majority of people would not be able to afford a cleaner. A lot of people are in low paid jobs and even those in middle income jobs are just getting by, hence it would be classed as a luxury afforded by high earners/the rich. Your perspective is based on the norms that you have experienced and your social circle. I don't know anyone who has a cleaner.

actually one of my cleaners had a cleaner. We live in a more expensive area and she commuted for work, but hired someone from her village to do her own cleaning for a cheaper price. My cleaner also said that for her, cleaning someone else's house was different, that was a job, her own was just a chore. So yes probably not very usual, but happens.

What enlightened men! I'm not taking the mickey. It's good that they think about/do these things. My FIL is good in that regard. My DH and DDad are oblivious. I did directly ask DH what he wanted to do: spend his time or money and he said money.

And this is the issue - that women are expected to do it, and women are employed to do it.
Not men.
DH suggested we get a cleaner (because he couldn't be arsed to do his share). I said only if we get a male cleaner. That conversation went no further.

The craziness of my MIL aside (that's a thread on its own if I could be bothered!), her and FIL did do a great job of raising the three boys into decent men. All of them take on a good amount of the load at home and are happy to do the "pink" jobs (my friend classifies them as pink or blue and it makes me giggle).

Of course. I don't know anyone where both parents are working who doesn't have one.

It doesn't mean I don't believe you.

Ugh, "pink and blue jobs". I do all our household finances. Rather not but DH lives under a rock when it comes to paperwork.

On the other hand, FIL does not know how to work his oven or microwave whereas DH does nearly all our food shopping and cooking.

People are so odd. Parental role modelling is overrated imo.

No reread @Fizbosshoes

the poster is baffled that you’d pay anyone to do anything that you can do yourself

@Extrachoc nails it here.

I pay someone to clean my oven. It is a luxury because I could do it myself. What is wrong with a luxury? It’s just how I chose to spend my money. Would rather pay someone to clean my oven every so often than buy takeaways etc. It’s a none issue. People should spend their money how they want.

I wonder if what op is talking about is the attitudes towards jobs that are traditionally gendered. So DIY , a male role, people won’t moralise or debate paying someone in to do it- paint the walls , put up shelves etc. but when people pay someone to do what are traditionally female roles, like cleaning , it’s a whole different matter.

I mean, it is a luxury for most people because they could do it themselves (not including people with limited mobility etc). Fixing a boiler isn't a luxury because for most people because they couldn't do it themselves even if they wanted to.

A luxury doesn't have to be something wild though. Getting a nice coffee when you're out is a little luxury because you don't need it and could have made it yourself 🤷‍♀️

But whilst paying a cleaner doesn't mean you're particularly wealthy (it's completely normal in my circles too), you'd have to be really stupid not to realise that they are out of reach for a lot of people. Or do you think that families using food banks or choosing between eating and heating can afford to pay someone to clean their homes?

Nurses are lower middle-class, moving into middle-class as they move through the heirarchy. Doctors are middle-class. That nursing pre-WWII included young women who were middle-class is a red herring - the equivalent of those young women now become doctors because medicine is now more open to women than it was.

🤣🤣