To be confused as to why hiring a cleaner is seen as an indulgence?

[Gahr]

This is something that I see time and again on this site, and it is SO WEIRD. People seem to think that it is the height of luxury to have a housecleaner, and also seem to be strangely apologetic about it, offering disclaimers as to why they need one. Also, I've noticed that on threads when someone has a problem with their cleaning service, they will get several posts telling them to 'clean their own house'. Nobody would tell someone to 'service their own boiler' or 'fix their own toilet'! I don't understand it at all. I have a cleaner and I wouldn't be without her.

I too pay 18ph
seems pretty reasonable to me

Clearly I don't agree with neo-liberalism (what some call catastrophe capitalism) especially since it disempowers and impoverishes particularly women e.g. when a third world country is pressured into allowing its land, infrastructure and resources open to foreign companies' investment - this is neo-colonialism, I think and it particularly affects women who are generally at the margin and often subsistence level farmers in such countries.
I am not sure what we do short of a complete reversal of globalisation and neo-liberalism and a return to the social contract of the post-war years. This will eventually come because the structure of wealth is now unsustainable over time - sadly, it will be catastrophic.

Come again?

I think it is a luxury. I haven't ever had a cleaner, or a window cleaner, or a car washer.
Of course I don't service my own boiler though, as I am not qualified.
Paying someone else to clean up after me in my own home? That is a luxury I cannot justify.

It’s a socialist feminist analysis minus the luxury beliefs.

Or the cleaner earners more per hour that the person paying them to clean?

Is everyone on benefits there?? I don’t understand how can you not know ANYONE who uses a nursery or childminder? Why are people not at work si they can look after children informally?

Is it harder work that a carer to the elderly ? Wiping bums etc. Or a HCA in a hospital?. These people earn less than that. So if they pay for a cleaner themselves it's an hour and half work for them for the cleaner to do an hour

Do you lecture your DD about having a cleaner @Grammarnut ?

That's all you took from what I wrote? I'm not reading your mind, I'm responding to what I've gleaned from what you've posted.

It's OK for you to fucking dare talk about those of us who do these jobs as poor, ignorant slaves, it's OK for you to fucking dare to tell us what people should and shouldn't be employing us to do, but it isn't OK for me to fucking dare to tell you what I think your feelings, based on what you wrote, might be about those of us who actually do these jobs.

If those aren't your feelings, if you feel I've misunderstood, fine. I told you what I think. Based on what you wrote. You come back with vitriol. So much for thoughtful, intelligent debate.

Yes it’s a luxury item not everyone can afford but no more so than buying food in a restaurant or takeaway, getting a bus/taxi/driving a journey that could be walked instead, getting my hair cut, having a dishwasher, buying new clothes , sending my children to school rather than teaching them myself …. The list is endless. People have different amounts of money and choose to spend it different ways. Spending it on a cleaner gives money to someone else in a way a lot of other purchases wouldn’t so it’s not bad for society.

@Grammarnut seems to have some very old fashioned views about working class women (whether mums or grandmas) staying home to look after the children, and childminders/cleaners being just lowly morons desperately trying to earn some pennies because they can't do anything else but be exploited by rich women with proper jobs.

Marxism is a pile of old crap.

Interestingly, the response from our Guardian reader to that post of mine was how very fucking dare I express an opinion on what she thinks, to presume what goes on in her mind. I thought I was basing it on what she'd written.

I thought the response was very telling. A peasant had dared to tell her what she thinks - This is the problem in a nutshell. Not interested in the views of the workers themselves, because we don't know what's best for us. Better let our betters argue for us. We don't know what's in their minds even when they've written it down in plain view on a public forum, but they know what employment is best for us, how valid it is, and who should be providing it.

Disappointing. More Conservative thinking from the 'left in name only' MC.

I'm as GC as the next woman and do get your point about class and privilege leading to luxury beliefs, but I think this is stretching the truth a bit. Are you really suggesting that middle-class women don't use changing rooms (shop, gym, swimming pool), toilets (office, theatre, cinema, department store)?

Nurses are also middle class. Just saying.

It's something that you could argue that most people don't 'need' - i.e. the majority of people can physically clean their homes. It also costs enough money that a good proportion of people couldn't fit it into their budget. That's why it's seen as a luxury.

You don't need to feel guilty about it but being wide eyed and faux-naive about it as though it's something everyone could easily afford is irritating.

All of them?? My friend is a nurse and most definitely working class

There’s a lot of jealousy & bitterness on here. Wait to see what happens if you ever defend a husband. They come for you big time then 🤣

This kind of illustrates why trying to split workers into working class and middle class is so pointless.

TBF, there's another threat about robot hoovers I've just been reading. I wonder how long it will be before the 'self - cleaning' house is a thing, and the luxury will be those who can afford to have the technology to press a button before they go to work, and arrive home to a sparkling house. Probably wouldn't even need to press a button, just ask Alexa...

Nursing is a profession- and one that requires considerable education and training. If you are a nurse you are, by definition, "middle class". Fwiw my mum grew up very working class (her dad was a labourer, mum was in service) and trained as a nurse in the 1960s after finishing at the local grammar school. She always thought of herself as working class as thats where her roots were but the truth was that she wasn't any longer. One of the reasons that class is only useful as a classifier up to a (quite limited) point.

Hmm my friend is the daughter of a binman and a shop assistant. Lives in a council house and married to a labourer in a deprived area. Not very middle class lol

More absolute shit from you.

You have no clue what my life is like, my job or class background or what newspaper I do or don't read.

Engage with the argument not your assumption of who I am.

I don't think the comparison to boiler service is fair. Boiler service is a necessity that I'm not allowed to do myself. Cleaner is a luxury since I can do it myself. It is not a luxury in a sense that it is only for the rich.

However, i do agree that people are too embaressed and apologetic about it. It is no different from other luxury services that are more socially acceptable. I have to say, I thought having a cleaner was expensive but it is a lot cheaper than I expected. When I get a bigger house, I will be getting a cleaner if I can find one.