To be confused as to why hiring a cleaner is seen as an indulgence?

[Gahr]

This is something that I see time and again on this site, and it is SO WEIRD. People seem to think that it is the height of luxury to have a housecleaner, and also seem to be strangely apologetic about it, offering disclaimers as to why they need one. Also, I've noticed that on threads when someone has a problem with their cleaning service, they will get several posts telling them to 'clean their own house'. Nobody would tell someone to 'service their own boiler' or 'fix their own toilet'! I don't understand it at all. I have a cleaner and I wouldn't be without her.

I don’t agree that it is staff.
staff is someone employed by you full time
all that is just contractors

I thought it was normal on MN to have one. As well as tipping them a full years worth of of wages at Christmas.

Contractors, then, if you will. Still the gig economy. Still m/c women using the labour of w/c/less economically secure women to do the labour they do not want to do/don't have time to do - and probably their partner won't share (which is another aspect of the problem).

Nobody would question those two examples because they are thought of as ‘man jobs’ - therefore can be outsourced with no shame attached!

Childminders, dogwalkers and cleaners aren't 'staff', you don't employ them.

It's not exploitation. It's recognising it as work and therefore deserving of financial recompense.

I would argue that there is a moral duty for people to ensure that those who they are responsible for - children or family who are physically unable to perform such duties - have a clean and safe home environment.

However, there is no moral obligation to be the person physically responsible for making that environment clean and safe, which is where making a decision to appoint somebody able and willing to that for a fair payment comes into play.

I don't have 'staff' when a nice lady comes in to feed the cat, wrap and put some turds into the outside bin as per the local authority waste disposal instructions and play with him for an hour or so when I'm away from home. I am paying somebody who wants to earn money doing something they are willing to do a fair amount for her time - she decides the price and I decide that's an acceptable amount for me to pay - and for taking her chances with the contents of his little box of Evil whilst I am not present to fulfil my moral (and legal) responsibilities towards my pet.

The fact that the work I am paying for is in respect of an animal's needs instead of my need to have a clean and safe home environment is irrelevant; I am still paying for somebody else's time, trustworthiness, reliability and expertise and not exploiting them or furthering the aims of The Patriarchy in that.

Do working class women not use childminders, dogwalkers and cleaners?

I grew up working class, single mother, v v tight finances. We had a childminder after school and a cleaner. Not sure how she afforded it but somehow made it work

You are BU for saying you don’t understand why it’s an indulgence. Frankly, that’s insulting to the millions in the UK who struggle financially to make ends meet.

Try living through not having money for prescriptions, or choosing between a white sliced loaf or pint of milk ahead of payday, then tell me it’s not an indulgence.

I’ve been there ^

Nowadays I could comfortably afford a cleaner if I wanted to, but I choose not to. I’d never rub it in the faces of those less fortunate though.

I’ve got daily household help and I still find the juggle hard. I am careful when in conversations with others I don’t always reveal how much help we have. And I used to feel guilty as if I was failing for not being able to manage the juggle well. I don’t feel guilty anymore I think everyone’s situation is different. But I do recognise affording help is a luxury. I grew up very poor. I had no help and I’ve worked very hard to be in position I am so I don’t feel guilty about how I choose to spend my money.

She must have been a miracle worker. I was a single parent earning enough to pay higher rate tax but I could never have afforded a cleaner.

Misogyny. The idea that women must do all the traditional womanly support stuff themselves - see also childcare and care of the elderly. Also the idea that these roles are demeaning so it’s terrible to ask someone else to do it.

This is it 100%

?? My cleaners paid £17 an hour and she's worth every penny. Why is it stupid to pay someone properly?
I use the 2 hours a week she works for me to go walking w friends, something I otherwise would not have time to do.

Misogyny, specifically an internalised belief that women's lives shouldn't be too easy.

Occasionally you see virtue signalling along the lines of "it's just outsourcing from more privileged women to less privileged women" as though it isn't obvious that the need is created by a large proportion of men (of all demographics) being too bloody lazy to put the hoover round.

The two women I employ to clean have got kids with serious medical needs and SEN respectively and would struggle to do any other work - so for them the ability to do flexible close to home work in school hours is a lifeline. They are both single parents.

See again: bloody lazy men.

I am working (unpaid) while they are here (because my "part time" teaching job is impossible otherwise).

Sometimes I look up legal/SEN stuff for them as they are often being hassled by uncaring bureaucracy of various kinds.

Although cleaners don't charge that much it's still a luxury for a lot of people. We're comfortable but still don't feel like I want to lay someone to do something I can do myself.

Eh? When you account for the lack of paid holiday, paid travel between clients, pension or sick leave, that’s about minimum wage.

I've worked as a cleaner and always been well paid. People who can clean well and be trusted in your house with your possessions, children and pets are rarer than you think.
Your post just radiates scorn for people you obviously look down on. I've met similar people whilst cleaning, I've also worked as an industrial contract cleaner, had to deal with people throwing things on the floor, spitting and being generally filthy because it's the cleaner's job to clean up after them. Some people are just unpleasant.

As for a cleaner being a luxury. Yes, it's something that not everyone can afford, but there's nothing wrong with employing one if you can afford it. It's certainly nothing to be ashamed of or something to apologise for.

Middle class PEOPLE, please. The man in the house (if there is one) is benefitting just as much from that cleaner. More, usually, as they're generally not the one finding, managing and equipping them.

If I left house cleanliness up to DH we would live in a pigsty which would be horrible for DC.

I'm solving that practically, because in the early days of our relationship I got sick of trying to get him to participate, so he can pay instead, which he's more than happy to.

My school employs cleaners. Is that a luxury?

Should the teachers do it themselves? Most of us are female so...

[I'm actually a bit scared to joke about this the way education budgets are...!]

I don't think domestic cleaning is inherently physically different to mowing the lawn, no. It's a little different to clearing gutters which can require specialist equipment (beyond what's usually available domestically) and a lot different to painting and decorating, which is a skilled trade.

So, you have moved the goalposts a bit. I am not talking only about the professionalism of manual labour, but specifically the professionalism of unskilled domestic labour.

If there is a difference in my head between cleaning and, say, weeding, it's more cultural/aesthetic. Domestic cleaning is inherently about returning a space to cleanliness after it's been dirtied by the dust, dirt, odours and lives of others. Psychologically, it's about repelling our disgust and shame. Paying money to outsource that is pretty grubby in my eyes. We all shit and shed our skin, after all.

Economically, cleaning is not likely to be lucrative and it's disingenuous to pretend it is. Cleaning houses is restricted to a limited hourly manual labour rate unless and until you turn it into a business and join the boss class.

But, good thoughtful post compared to most on here. Thanks.

They are part of the gig economy. What are we doing if we are not employing them?
And I was using staff loosely to point out the relationship.

A bit off topic, but I do wonder if Japan has the right idea in getting the kids to do it.

You see, I think this post and those like it are just... barmy. As if the way to tackle the misogynistic division of household labour is for rich women to pay poorer women to do it.

What do we think men think about that?