To be confused as to why hiring a cleaner is seen as an indulgence?

[Gahr]

This is something that I see time and again on this site, and it is SO WEIRD. People seem to think that it is the height of luxury to have a housecleaner, and also seem to be strangely apologetic about it, offering disclaimers as to why they need one. Also, I've noticed that on threads when someone has a problem with their cleaning service, they will get several posts telling them to 'clean their own house'. Nobody would tell someone to 'service their own boiler' or 'fix their own toilet'! I don't understand it at all. I have a cleaner and I wouldn't be without her.

I did hear that from a head teacher who went on a study tour there actually.

It showed how worryingly detached she was from the normal life of our school in the UK, where the teachers already did most of it. The classrooms were really dirty. I used to hand year 7 kitchen roll and cleaning spray and let them have at it!

It's an expense that isn't a necessity and as such it is a luxury. Shd people be judged for having a cleaner though? no.

I dropped work hours in the last yr and still have my cleaner. We mull over going without her but won't, because her coming makes a palpable difference to our quality of life. She also cleans much better than I do. I have been called a princess because of this by work colleagues and tbh, I don't give a flying.

How much is your household income?

I agree, OP. For the 30+ years when we were both working, a cleaner was an essential. And the cleaner we had for the last 20 years was more like a "housewife" to both of us, as she did laundry, ironing, picked up post etc and kept us organised.
Now that we are both retired, we decided to do without, mainly to give us a bit more flexibility. We share the chores - my husband, in fact, does most of the cleaning. And I will still pay to get a company in occasionally. As and when we get too old and knackered to DIY clean, then we'll go back to paying for a cleaner. Life's too short to waste it on a dull task like cleaning, plus we'll provide employment, so it's a win-win.

Fine. But you are still outsourcing a responsibility. And in the case of childminding and cleaning this allows women to work who otherwise could not - and utilizes the labour of women who are less well-qualified for the job market than the woman who uses their services. It's outsourcing mainly the unpaid work women do and allows capitalism to continue as if none of its employees had anything to do but work for them. Capitalism devalues domestic work - work absolutely necessary for a functioning economy - and encourages it to be outsourced to those deemed less well-qualified by the capitalist system. The result is that m/c high earners are 'liberated' and can fulfill potential or lead more luxurious lives at the expense of less well-qualified/educated women, whose lives are much less liberated (and who suffer from the results of luxury beliefs held by said high earning women e.g. transgenderism).
I am happy to employ a cleaner (I used to) but it is unethical in an already unethical system.

Yeah , OP I think YABU re is it a luxury . To Me, it certainly is .
However, I also think of the Cleaner you employ and Pay . Without You (and/or other clients) the Cleaner would have no wage.

I pay my cleaner well. She’s been with me for 8 years. Good cleaners that you can trust are hard to find. I paid her throughout Covid when she couldn’t work.

To be honest though, it doesn’t mean I don’t clean my own house. Just one day someone else does (and I still spend an hour tidying before she arrives). There is still cleaning and laundry a cooking etc to be done every day. So it helps but it’s not like having a housekeeper.

I remember in Covid when she couldn’t come and my Dad (who has never cleaned anything in his life) said ‘well she’ll have to clean her own house then’. Like I did nothing between the cleaner visits. As if!

Well I think most women in partnerships would prefer their male partner to do their fair share.

But it's not the men who'll be judged when the place is dirty.

People do work long hours in the UK too comparatively to other developed countries, and there's only so many hours in the day.

If I got paid less per hour than my cleaner I probably would do it myself.

As a matter of fact I quite enjoy cleaning but I'm not a mug - DH and our joint child make the majority of the mess.

I have a cleaner. I'm a carer to 2 young people with complex needs. I don't go out to work. We are very fortunate to be able to afford it , but are not even close to wealthy. Tbh it saves my sanity. It means I can take care of me (walk, swim, meet up with friends) while my charges are at school without feeling like I should be doing x,y,z. I don't get time to myself, nor am I able to clean, when they're at home.

I don't think there's anything wrong with being a cleaner or employing a cleaner, but of course there are people that can't justify paying for one. If you've ever heard of a food bank you should be able to put 2 + 2 together.

You're using their services, you are a client not an employer.

It is a luxury. I have one who comes every 2 weeks, I very much appreciate her help. If I didn’t have her, I’ll be ok but will spend a lot more time on the weekend cleaning

I don't think anyone is telling you to feel guilty. You just need to acknowledge that for some people it would be a luxury. To claim to be 'confused' by some people saying it's a luxury just shows astonishing narrow mindedness and a lack of awareness about other people's lives. You don't need to be a 'leftie' to recognise that some people don't have as much money as others.

Ironically your examples explain it all. Using a duster is in no way comparable with blowing up or flooding your house

Logically then, outsourcing anything you could do yourself is a luxury?

I mean I take the point about capitalism but if we all grew our own veg, made our own clothes, cleaned everything inside and out, did all our own childcare, mended and DIYed everything - we'd basically be living like the unnamed people in Jane Austen novels (the named ones mostly have staff!)

Why shouldn't I outsource a job that I do very badly, to someone who can do it very efficiently and wants the work (for which I pay them well)? Everyone is happy, in my scenario.

But why shouldn’t household labour be outsourced? Why is cleaning and tidying up any different to gardening or home repairs or car repairs or home decorating? Its not inherently demeaning or less worthy a job.

And why the assumption that the only or main reason households employ a cleaner is because a man in the household won’t ‘ do his share?! In my experience it’s because all or both householders work in long hours in careers or with long commutes and it’s far more sensible to outsource the job.

We've employed a lady for over 20 years first engaged when we were both young and had no ironed shirts due to our working hours. She interviewed us as much as otherwise and I’ve always held her in considerable respect and affection. It’s never occurred to me to put her in a ‘class’ but when I think about it I see her as a peer.

You come across like you feel very superior to cleaners, childminders and working class women in general?

We don’t have a cleaner - I’d rather save the money, do it ourselves (not that well), and retire sooner. We also clean our windows and our car. Training DC up to help 😂

I also don’t want the hassle of being an employer personally!

I don't think cleaning to a high standard is unskilled.

Otherwise I wouldn't need to be showing my DC how to do it.

I don't think painting and decorating in an everyday sense is that much more skilled than cleaning. I mean yes working at height, or glossing things well, or lovely sharp edges with bright colours (tbh a lot of professional painters can't!) but when it comes to painting a room, I've done that numerous times in my life perfectly adequately without any training and I'm not at all handy.

It's just the TIME it takes.

It is a luxury that I suspect the majority of us cannot afford. It must be great to have a cleaner ! We don't have one, or pay for window cleaners or car washes because we can't afford it and they aren't necessities, they are jobs that can be done by us. However if someone is posting complaining about money and counts a cleaner as a necessity (unless disabled) theres going to be most pointing out ' that you can clean your house yourself.'

I’d love a cleaner.

But it’s around £20 ph where I am. I’d need at least 3 maybe 4 hours a week to see any benefit.

That’s £240-320 pcm.

Thats a lot of money. And me and DH are in decent salaries, but I just can’t justify it.

So yes - it’s a luxury.

I would only ever employ (sorry "outsource a domestic requirement on a freelance basis") cleaners I like. It's nice to see them.

My mum was/is the same. Paying for some company that's useful.

We used to do holiday house swaps with one of the cleaners of my youth when she retired.

OK, back the truck up a minute. Can you elaborate on your transgender comment, as I want to make sure I clearly understand your point.

I think that gender ideology is seen by many as an example of a ‘luxury belief’.