To be confused as to why hiring a cleaner is seen as an indulgence?

[Gahr]

This is something that I see time and again on this site, and it is SO WEIRD. People seem to think that it is the height of luxury to have a housecleaner, and also seem to be strangely apologetic about it, offering disclaimers as to why they need one. Also, I've noticed that on threads when someone has a problem with their cleaning service, they will get several posts telling them to 'clean their own house'. Nobody would tell someone to 'service their own boiler' or 'fix their own toilet'! I don't understand it at all. I have a cleaner and I wouldn't be without her.

Well, I employ cleaners, a window cleaner, gardeners, an oven cleaner, decorators, a carpet cleaner and a dog groomer. So I am paying my money which goes to support all these people. My husband WON'T do any of the jobs which he could such as decorating, gardening and window cleaning so how would they get done otherwise?

This thread, like every other one come to think of it, is just an argument. Nobody listens, or tries to understand. It's actually pointless.

The idea that cleaners are downtrodden little pathetic exploited women who given the choice would spread their wings and do something amazing instead if only people woud stop exploiting them by employing them is ridiculous

My old cleaner had a PHD but had just arrived from Poland and was working on her language skills. She worked for me for 3 years then found a fabulous job and is now very high up at TFL.

My next cleaner earned over £50k a year. She worked bloody hard- 46 hours a week and then did a bit of ironing in the evening on top. She left school with a handful.of GCSE's. Where we live most unskilled jobs are minimum wage and a bit crap. She loved cleaning and also loved the money.

My current cleaner only doesit to save up for a month in Florida every year.

I'm actually a cleaner myself in effect- I have a glaping business which actilually means I spend most days cleaning, gardening washing and ironing for guests. When I get home the absolute last thing I want to do is clean.

I was also a cleaner when I was doing my post grad. It fitted in well with lecture and tutorials.

So many things are a luxury then.
more than one pair of winter shoes and more than one coat are a luxury.
all subscriptions
smartphone
heck even the internet (there are still libraries and internet cafes around)
most of your shopping list is also a luxury, you don’t really need much than basic veg, beans on toast and cheap protein

(I’ve done all of the above btw 😂 still zero guilt about employing a cleaner now)

Hie much do you pay per hour, like????

Like any other business model, it's spotting a gap in the market, isn't it? It's no less ambitious than a painter and decorator who knows they do something well, maybe they even enjoy doing it, and realises they could be making a living out of that beyond the wage they'd earn working for someone else.

It's enterprising, and I'd say considerably more ambitious than spending your life in a big company, working as a 'professional' and fighting with all the other wage-slaves for a slice of the pie the person who owns the business gets.

Generations of men have professionalised manual labour. The misogyny lies in your notion that somehow, for women, it's different.

It isn't. Why shouldn't women have a lucrative business doing manual domestic labour? Would it be 'better' if that manual domestic labour was offering basic gardening services, cleaning gutters or windows? All jobs most of us who are able-bodied could do.oirselves?

If you see housework as 'different' from the myriad of business models which have professionalised manual labour, why? What is it about cleaning that's different from say, gutter clearance or mowing the lawn?

No one can service their own boiler because that's illegal

I pay £20 per hour (direct, no agency)

I am retired now due to a combo of my own ill health and the time-related rigours of caring for a disabled child and my cleaner earns more per hour than i ever did in my last job.

I currently outsource cleaning and the garden. And this week I even - shock horror- outsourced a clean up of garden waste by a company when i could have taken it to the tip myself.

Bloody love it. Regret none of it. I just think with gratitude that I can afford to do it.

(To the pp who likens it to employing someone as a sex worker. I don't outsource that at all ).

Well, you could do them yourself... Actually, I'm not saying you should and if you want to employ people to do those jobs, that's fine. I just wanted to point out the inherent sexism in your post.

I’m astonished at your tone deafness. Wide-eyed innocence, too.

You don’t need to feel guilty. Just acknowledge that you are incredibly lucky to be able to pay someone else to clean up your shit.

And don’t even bother trying to pretend you didn’t realise you’d find quite such a supportive audience in the very well to do, very middle class Mumsnet.

I don’t know anyone who regards having someone else cleaning their toilet a luxury.

Fully agree with all that. You can choose to pay it and it's still a luxury.
If people couldn't afford it they would have to prioritise. Same with a subscriptions.
Modern life I'd say requires a smart phone for lots of things. What it doesn't require is the latest model costing a fortune every month. A basic model sim only does the job

No its the shrieking leftie guardian readers who TELL us we should feel guilty 😅

Honestly, I think this is part of what is very wrong with the world today. We are surrounded by luxuries. Buying new clothes is a luxury, snacks, alcohol, extra curricula for your kids. All these are luxuries just as having a cleaner is a luxury. It's something you want rather than need. As others have said, you are outsourcing something you could do yourself. It leads to entitlement because people start to conflate wants and needs. That said, there is nothing wrong with choosing to spend your money on a cleaner. I would love to but I prioritise my kid (not saying you don't of course but my income wouldn't stretch so far as to have both). It is a luxury. It's ok to have luxuries. But don't pretend it's something anyone could consider having, because it's not.

I haven't rtft but, I don't judge anyone with a cleaner, I am envious though!

I would have to pay more than my hourly wage to have one.

Then count yourself lucky that is the world in which you frequent. There are millions of others who DO see that as a luxury.

Outsourcing our caring responsibilities (keeping the house clean comes under that heading) is a way that m/c women (usually) use the labour of women who are either w/c or further down the food chain for their benefit and to allow them a lifestyle unfettered by (some) caring responsibilities. Now, you could look at this as m/c women providing work for w/c women (and some women will build a business out of this) or you could look at it as exploitation of economically less secure members of society by those who are economically secure.

Having a cleaner means you have 'staff'. Staff includes people like a dog walker, a nanny, a childminder, a cleaner. From one viewpoint these are m/c women exploiting as above. From another it is empowering some women to have careers and others to have jobs, which are generally insecure - all the jobs I listed are part of the precariat (along with e.g. exam marking) - but that allow them to live, maybe stay at home with their DC, for example.
It's fine to have a cleaner (my DD has one who comes in once a fortnight and cleans the entire house). DD works full-time and has no DC but does have a DP and a DDog (has dog walker also). Just understand what the transaction is that you are making and what you are doing.
That's why having a cleaner is a luxury (although it actually may not be in physical terms if you work f/t and have DC). Oddly, no-one thinks of nursery places or childminders as luxuries! Which gives one to think - perhaps women should receive wages for all the labour they provide that keeps capitalism going currently free of charge? We could do it by swapping. I.e. I clean my neighbour's house and she cleans mine and we pay each other. Or we could stop doing this unpaid work until it is equally shared by men - this is a subversive idea btw.

This comment really bears repeating.
(Although now someone will come along and take the "cleaning up the shit" bit literally: "I have a cleaner but no way would I shit on the floor and expect them to clean it up...)

Aha! The argument that the rich give employment to the poor and that thus the status quo is ok. It's not and neo-liberal capitalism's idea that wealth trickles down from the rich to the poor is a lie - mostly wealthy trickles up from the poor to the wealthy in miriad transactions that we make every day.

Having a cleaner means you have 'staff'. Staff includes people like a dog walker, a nanny, a childminder, a cleaner. From one viewpoint these are m/c women exploiting as above.

women, though. DH hired our (male) dog walker and not one single person has had opinions about it being demeaning and exploitative.

Say 2 hours a week at 20 quid an hour 40 quid a week that's £160 a month. That's about a third of someone's wages on minimum wage. Rough figures I know but honestly if you can't understand why some people see that as a luxury you need to read the room more

That's the thing though.

Not everyone is on minimum wage.

A lot of people are and maybe those people can't afford a cleaner. And that's fine. It's like all the hoo haa about the M&S beef wellington before Christmas. Not everyone would be able to afford either that or a cleaner no matter how much they cut back; or even avail themselves of them if they could. Some people would be able to make slight adjustments and prioritise if it were important to them; some people wouldn't even have to think about it.

I don't really like the whole 'read the room' mentality. 'The Room' is a big place and were all in it. We all have our own incomes and our own costs and our own priorities

I've never had a cleaner because I don't like the thought of someone being in my house when I'm not there. I've always had a window cleaner though and a gardener because I wanted them, I'm not physically capable of doing them due to physical limitations and I did it as a single parent.

I am well aware that some people are less well off than me. I'm also very aware that many people are very much better off than me. And that's all fine.

What would be a luxury to one person will be a non negotiable to another. And that's fine.

Ah, OK. I got the wrong end of the stick.

Is it something you have do to survive? No? Is it something socially expected ? A social norm? No?

Then it’s an indulgence, a luxury and I do think people might be happier if they could recognise their life luxuries.

Most people clean the toilet after themselves. I have had cleaners in the past and I would never expect them to clean a toilet that has skid marks/stains on it.
My children, who both work full time with young children, always make sure that their toilets are in a decent state before the cleaner comes.
It is not slave work. Most cleaners earn considerably more than the minimum wage.
Nearly all of clothing is made by very poorly paid workers in the third world.

I love having a cleaner and prioritise it over eating out, clothes, cinema trips or other stuff people spend their money on.

It saves me from having to nag my DH into doing his equal share of scrubbing the shower walls, wiping down skirting boards, dusting shelves and a million other things that he just doesn't think of doing.

If we're both paying towards a cleaner it feels fair. If I were doing most of the cleaning or having to keep at him to do it then resentment would build.

In fact I even know a cleaner who herself employs a cleaner, mainly for the same reasons.