To be confused as to why hiring a cleaner is seen as an indulgence?

[Gahr]

This is something that I see time and again on this site, and it is SO WEIRD. People seem to think that it is the height of luxury to have a housecleaner, and also seem to be strangely apologetic about it, offering disclaimers as to why they need one. Also, I've noticed that on threads when someone has a problem with their cleaning service, they will get several posts telling them to 'clean their own house'. Nobody would tell someone to 'service their own boiler' or 'fix their own toilet'! I don't understand it at all. I have a cleaner and I wouldn't be without her.

Can you unpick for me why you thing we should 'take responsibility ' for this? What are your reasons?

Supplementary question, what would all the unemployed cleaners do once everyone 'took responsibility'?

I may be wrong, but I think lots of cleaners don't regard it as a particularly horrible job and would be very happy to take your money for doing it.

I don't know about you, but I work full-time in a tiring and stressful job. I don't have a cleaner at the moment, because I'm a bit reluctant to spend the money. But I don't regard paying someone to do a job they've chosen to do (and which doesn't pay too badly for an unqualified job, and which may well fit in flexibly with their other commitments and responsibilities) as 'a hangover from Upstairs Downstairs'. Many cleaners run their own business. It's frankly insulting to compare them with old-fashioned servants.

How dare you have your shopping delivered by Ocado? Don't you realise you are exploiting the delivery driver?
You should be walking down to Aldi in the rain 😅😅

Women have of course always worked for pay. All through history.

SAHMs were only ever a very tiny proportion of women from very privileged backgrounds.

There are all sorts of historical books on it. It is such a bizarre fairytale, that women didn't work. They have always worked for pay in case the husband pissed off, dropped dead, whored or drank the money or just refused to hand it over (as they regularly did).

This is extremely well reported and recorded and many books have been writen on the subject.

I think mumsnetters spend too much time watching 1950s black and whtie sitcoms.

As I stated however, it is indeed absolutely and irrefutably a luxury indulgence to have a cleaner. Can't be disputed.

And as I stated, that doesn't mean people shouldn't have that luxury if they want to. Modern life is full of luxuries.

I think you are right, but it is absolute nonsense and it is rooted in misogyny. I don't think anyone does feel shame about employing plumbers.

NOT the same thing at all and you know that. A hairdresser has usually spent years perfecting their craft and home box dye is never going to look as good as something performed by a professional. The same with the examples you gave in your op, plumber or heating engineers are skilled, trained workers with certifications allowing them to do the job they do, you can not place a cleaner and a heating engineer in the same need bracket.

If I wanted to pay someone to come in every day and cook for my family that would be a luxury and a want rather than need, having a cleaner for many is on the same level.

Many people could easily clean their own homes, unless someone lives in a very large house it does not take up too much of their precious time but they chose to employ a cleaner because it is something they would rather not do and so they pay others to do that job. There is nothing wrong with that at all but in your OP you asked why it was seen as an indulgence. Well for those who do not have physical restrictions it IS an indulgence and if you can not see that then that is your problem, not mine.

You chose to have a cleaner because it is something that you want (unless you have a health restriction preventing you from cleaning your own home), that's fine but own up to the fact that it is a luxury and not a need. That is ok you know.

Feel free to search through the thread for when I answered these exact questions before. I have cleaning to do.

I only know one friend/neighbour in the town i live in who doesnt have a cleaner. I also don't have one.

My mum used to do cleaning as a side hustle but I dont remember many people where I grew up having a cleaner.

I do see it as a luxury in the sense that its not an essential in the way food, heating, clothes and bills are essential.

Fwiw DH wouldnt pay anyone to do gardening or decorating because he could do those himself. I suppose I classify cleaning as different to eg servicing a boiler, decorating , unblocking a toilet because its a more regular thing, rather than occassional expenses. (And some of those are specialist skills that the average person isnt qualified for)

I dont judge anyone for having a cleaner, if they can afford it, but I dont think its an essential.

You can't personally put a boiler in. You can personally scrub your own toilet.

Stop pretending not to get it and making false analogies - it's very, very boring.

As you know, it is very much a luxury indulgence to have a cleaner. But you only started the thread as a piss take, so I really will stop reading now, it's was mildly amusing to begin with and now it's as dreary as your attempt to pretend not to get it

Plenty of cleaners get at least £20 ph in London and surrounding areas.

Because most people wouldn't know where to start with plumbing. Are you honestly saying it's the same thing?

We clean our own car and windows!

Under absolutely no circumstances is it a white thing or a British thing. I have no idea where you've picked that up from. It's a universal thing. A human thing. People from every corner of the world who have the means outsource all kinds of domestic jobs.

Ha ha I’m a single working parent I could clean but I hate it
and I try not to do stuff I hate
I love my cleaner

To pay for a cleaner is a luxury to most people in the same way that a takeaway, netflix, restaurants, taxis, nice clothes, hairdressers, going on holiday, having more than one or two pairs of shoes or jackets are all luxuries. Do we NEED them - no. My best friend was a single mum to two kids and when they were at school she paid for a cleaner for a couple of hours on a Friday because it meant she got to spend a few hours at the weekend with her kids instead of them being ignored whilst she cleaned. This might be a luxury but she was in a poorly paid job and sacrificed other things to make it happen.

I meant it’s a white British thing to feel guilty about hiring a cleaner.

I don’t judge anyone for having a cleaner, and I wish I could have one myself, but it absolutely is a luxury and I am surprised people would argue otherwise. I would also say that, just because it is a luxury, that doesn’t also mean having one isn’t justified.

So, I'm one of the people who need a cleaner due to disability. My ex thought it would be a ludicrous, upper class ridiculous and avoidable expense... Purely because he didn't care to see the actual hours of work involved in cleaning/laundry/cooking/ad infinitum.

Having a cleaner legitimises this work, it is a shot at the patriarchy, although a hollow one round here because most cleaners seem to be women.

I think it's a very nuanced topic, actually!

That’s the spirit

I get the same reaction to having a gardener. I have had one for about eight or nine years, he only comes once a month and it costs me £30. I loathe gardening and also have a back issue so for me it’s a no brainer. But if I ever mention it I get accused of being posh, which I am very far from! I don’t even own my house.

Because food, heat, and a roof over your head is the priority for everyone if things are tough obviously lol.

I would happily outsource

Shopping
Cooking
Cleaning
Deep cleans
Window cleaning
Laundry
Maintenance
Decorating
Gardening

without a second thought. I love having everything clean, orderly, aesthetically pleasing and ready for use, but my body already hates me and it comes down to

working + having money > (not working x trying/failing to do all of that myself) + not having money

DP, however, didn't even like the idea of the window cleaner when I had one and was wide eyed and horrified at the suggestion of an actual cleaner.

He is therefore responsible for all of these things except large shopping - and that's because he can't do much about it when the van turns up. He has no choice about electrics or plumbing as I don't give him one - I will not have somebody who knows even less than I do fucking around with them in breach of legal requirements or risking causing damage to the structure of our house.

Eventually, we'll be in a situation where he isn't able to do them, either. And frankly, if he's still kicking off about how morally reprehensible it is to not be responsible for doing everything at that point, I'll outsource him to his mates for the day. I already have a plan that if he has to go away for something (he was away for 2 months to provide care when his father had a stroke, for example), I'll organise a deep clean, as I'm certainly not going to be able to do it and wouldn't want to try.

My belief is that if you want to do those things and are capable of doing them to a level that is legal and/or acceptable to you, then crack on. But if not, be smart and get somebody who know what they're doing and wants to do them in exchange for money.

Martyrdom is not an appealing look to me and I won't apologise for being too old/ill/lazy/morally bankrupt to want to live in a hovel for the rest of my life.

This in abundance.
All about perception of what is necessary /essential.
A cleaner is a luxury Imo.

I'm capable of cleaning my own house, have the time and don't have money to spare, so a cleaner would be a luxury for me. For someone with less money, they might think my having a window cleaner is a luxury (I'm not climbing ladders, thanks). For someone with more money and less time, having a cleaner could be a sensible option. It's all relative and it's important to recognise that different people have different perspectives.

I think part of the reason so many feel guilty is that we're in a society that claims to value self reliance and independence alongside growing anger about the wealth gaps.

It doesn't matter that no one is actually entirely independent (we rely on multiple people just to use this website) or that self reliance goes beyond just an unrealistic goal, but can be a goal to our detriment as humans co-regulate our emotions and understanding of the world with each other, it's a cultural aspiration, and admitting that you are choosing to pay to rely on someone else for what many people view as a basic skill goes against that. We can also see this disdain towards adults who don't drive or couples who dare to go shopping together - it's often framed around that people should be independent unless they have a good enough reason not to be, even though none of us are actually independent.

There is also a lot of growing anger how much has been hitting those on lower incomes that are largely caused by the very, very wealthy. A visible sign of wealth like having a cleaner is going to bring that ire, even if no where near the correct target - you're also a far easier target.

I don't and have never paid for a cleaner from outside the house, though I have paid for other things around the house. I've not been in a financial position to do so regularly and I'm not a fan of strangers messing with my things. I can only imagine considering it when much frailer and cleared out more around the house. My husband and I do however have our kids do a lot of things around the home, including the adult one that's only here a few weeks at a time, and we have and do compensate them. My son who doesn't live here most of time cleaning areas I find difficult is treated culturally and emotionally very differently even if I compensated him the same as a professional stranger. It is an odd thing if looked at too closely.